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Antler Point Restrictions
QDM
Messages posted to thread:
Jodie 04-Jun-16
writer 04-Jun-16
drycreek 04-Jun-16
Scrappy 05-Jun-16
WV Mountaineer 05-Jun-16
12yards 07-Jun-16
writer 07-Jun-16
Jodie 07-Jun-16
SILVERADO 07-Jun-16
12yards 09-Jun-16
SILVERADO 09-Jun-16
njbuck 09-Jun-16
APauls 09-Jun-16
WV Mountaineer 09-Jun-16
writer 10-Jun-16
Wackmaster68 10-Jun-16
12yards 10-Jun-16
bdfrd24v 11-Jun-16
bowriter 14-Jun-16
Genesis 14-Jun-16
DartonJager 21-Jul-16
stick n string 21-Jul-16
RD in WI 21-Jul-16
Jodie 21-Jul-16
stick n string 21-Jul-16
r-man 21-Jul-16
12yards 22-Jul-16
Vonfoust 22-Jul-16
X-Master 22-Jul-16
MichaelArnette 22-Jul-16
Genesis 22-Jul-16
drycreek 22-Jul-16
LKH 23-Jul-16
manitou1 23-Jul-16
DartonJager 27-Jul-16
DartonJager 27-Jul-16
doug 27-Jul-16
Matte 27-Jul-16
Ollie 27-Jul-16
elkaddict 27-Jul-16
12yards 28-Jul-16
JacobNisley 28-Jul-16


By: Jodie
Date:04-Jun-16

http://animalrange.montana.edu/documents/extension/trophyantlers.pdf

By: writer
Date:04-Jun-16
writer's Supporting Link

It's much easier for people to access if you copy the link in the "embed a link" box, below where we post photos.

:-)

Date:04-Jun-16

I think antler BASED restrictions work to some degree. Texas instituted a 13" inside spread a few years ago where I hunt and as a result, more mature bucks have been harvested, simply because it protects the yearlings and to some extent, the 2.5 year old bucks too. We are by no means taking all or most of the mature bucks out of the herd, because, as we all know, once a buck gets 3.5, he becomes much more nocturnal, and is harder to see during daylight hours. Point restrictions however, make no sense to me. I've seen many two year olds sporting eight points, some even more.

Date:05-Jun-16

It all adds up to removing the desirable genes out of the herd. Educating people to stop shooting young animals is the answer which will be next to impossible.

Date:05-Jun-16

Point restrictions are best used to limit buck harvest in herds under immense hunting pressure, increasing the age of harvested bucks. That's it. A lot of people seem to think they are great. Well, if you hunt in an area that has an extremely high doe to buck ratio, that sees most of the bucks killed yearly, it will. If not, results will be very limited and quite possibly, detrimental over the long run. God Bless

Date:07-Jun-16

Hunters have been trying to change the genetics of herds for the positive all over the country by shooting "cull" bucks and have failed. So how on earth can we possibly remove all the good genetics? Especially how do we remove the good genetics by allowing bucks to live longer and spread their genetics for at least another year or two? And don't does contribute to the genetic quality of bucks? Especially in northern latitudes where the first set of antlers tells nothing of a buck's potential, I don't see how APRs would negatively impact genetics.

By: writer
Date:07-Jun-16

12 - the coolest buck we've had on our farm, imo, was a massive, wide old six pointer that almost certainly would have gone Pope and Young.

He'd get to live under a lot of restrictions.

The many 1 1/2 year old 8 pointers could be shot instead.

Personally, I don't care. It's your permit, shoot what you want.

By: Jodie
Date:07-Jun-16

I think a course in genetics should be mandatory with hunters education.

Date:07-Jun-16

SILVERADO's embedded Photo

Under the antler point restriction a buck like this would get a lifetime free pass, he's never been larger than a 6pt and we have seen him 5 years in a row.

Date:09-Jun-16

writer, all those 1 1/2 year old 8s are getting killed every year now.

Silverado, he's been alive for 5 years now. Is the genetics in your herd declining rapidly because of him? I highly doubt he will breed every doe in your area and you will have new genetics migrating in every year as yearling bucks disperse.

Jodie, I've taken genetics classes in grad school. I'm smart enough to know that yearling antler size is determined by many factors in addition to genetics.

Date:09-Jun-16

SILVERADO's embedded Photo

Yes he has always been a 6 ot. There are many other deer in this area, does and bucks last day of the season I saw 32 deer. His genetics are definitely being spread but as you stated he cannot breed all of them. Here is a pic of another similar racked buck in the area.

By: njbuck
Date:09-Jun-16

Studies have shown that the genetics of the doe has just as much if not alittle more of a determining factor in the potential of the fawn than the buck. Hard to tell what type of genetics the mother has if you ask me.

Give the young bucks a pass until they get to atleast 3 years old and if they aren't looking good then than you can decide to take them out of the herd. Studies have also shown that it is virtually impossible to alter the genetics of a true free range herd they way we think we can by selectively targeting a few deer a year.

By: APauls
Date:09-Jun-16

The key in that article to me is the last two lines. Essentially, the area you are hunting needs to have a substantial amount of trophy animals left surviving at the end of hunting season.

Any time I try to think of what would be required to ACTUALLY manage the trophy population of an area my brain starts hurting about all the variables you will need to try and control, and the animals that you might need to harvest that you actually don't really want to and..and...and...

...and I'm so happy I can just go out and hunt for the enjoyment of it and see what kind of a buck I can find to hang my one tag on for the year...hopefully :)

Not to say anything negative about those that try and control the genetics. All the power to you, just with the time I have to hunt, and what I know I can control, it simply isn't possible.

Date:09-Jun-16

njbuck said, "Studies have also shown that it is virtually impossible to alter the genetics of a true free range herd they way we think we can by selectively targeting a few deer a year.".

Bingo. We have a winner. God Bless

By: writer
Date:10-Jun-16

12 - not in most parts of Kansas they're not, and danged sure not on our property or the ones around us.

I simply said under many systems, the buck I like the best on our farm couldn't be shot.

Date:10-Jun-16

I live here in Michigan and a lot of small deer are taken. I would like to see three points or better on one side to make hunters more selective. Open doe in counties with large populations.

Date:10-Jun-16

I'd say 4 points on a side and/or spread of a certain length (13"???). That should cover the occasional 6 pointer that never gets bigger.

Date:11-Jun-16

We have 3 on a side in my part of Pennsylvania and other parts have 4 on a side. They started this I believe in 2002. Honestly its been good and we are the home of the "million strong orange army" Now if we can just convince the state not to blast everything on fear of CWD...

Date:14-Jun-16

There is not one thing that can be done to improve the genetics in free ranging deer. You can improve the number of male animals. You can improve the sex ratio. But you cannot improve the genetics.

On the other hand, you can do things that are detrimental. That is, if you know just what genetic trait you are selecting for and understand how much contribution both male and female animals make.

And of course, neither you nor I do.

Date:14-Jun-16

High Grading is real........

and it speaks to the impossibility of genetic manipulation outside an enclosure.

The answer is easy.Add age and let the genetics express how they want and quit worrying about it

Date:21-Jul-16

Agree with point restrictions being "pointless" pun intended as I shot a 2-1/2 year old that had no less than 13 points, but didn't even scare P&Y minimum.

Date:21-Jul-16

Antler restrictions are not pointless. Thats ridiculous. Are there exceptions? Yup, there are in just bout everything. But to say they are pointless is just plain ignorant. Allowing bucks to get older as a whole can ONLY yield bigger bucks, both antler and body. There will always be some bucks that dont get a ton of points when older and some that will grow a bunch early on. But to say that it isnt going to show results across the board, come on. Not only does another year give that buck another years worth of body size or bone, it gives them another years worth of "how to" to survive anything that is attempting to prey on them. Which tools them with even more ability to make it to the next year. There has been a big increase of better sized bucks here in PA since AR rules have been put into place. Thats undeniable to any reasonable, honest hunter thats lives at least in southcentral PA where i live and ACTUALLY spends time afield. And as bdfrd said above, it would blow your mind the ampunt of hunters we have around here. I understand that some people want to just shoot whatever they see, and thats fine. I would rather eat tags and spend more time hunting a bigger deer than shoot the first year and a half old buck that walks under me. Is thst the right way to be? Only for me, because thats what i enjoy. I dont care what others want to do as long as its within the law. BUT dont try to justify your desire to shoot whatever by saying that giving bucks a better chance to get older wont affect the average sizes of them. Agree with them being pointless if you dont have a clue. Im not talking genetics, im talking raising the average age structure of deer. The antler restriction will help protect a good portion of the average young deer who have potential to grow as big as any other buck could. It wont protect the young deer that shows abnormally high potential by having a higher number of points at a young age, thats for the hunter to do if they choose to. It didnt matter enough to you to let him go and thats ur right, i may have took the shot too and wouldnt blame someone that did if that deer fed their family and provided them the heart pounding adrenaline they seek . Congrats on a great buck. But dont down antler restrictions ability to do what us hunters as a whole cant by supporting ur arguement with an exception. Not everybody stops at a stop signs while driving, we should probably just do away with them altogether....

Date:21-Jul-16

They have antler point restrictions in SE Minnesota where my 81 year old bow hunting mom lives.

We see some nice bucks occasionally while hunting and a good deal more on trail camera.

I think there has been a positive impact but would like to see the elderly have some latitude like youth hunters do, so they can harvest whatever they would like that offers them a good shot.

Maybe let 70 plus and 16 and below shoot any deer.

By: Jodie
Date:21-Jul-16
Jodie's Supporting Link

Wonder what voters think of APR's?

Date:21-Jul-16

EDIT: RD in WI, seniors in PA are NOT exempt from the APR here either. VonFoust, thanks for the correction. I got a ways to go til i am a senior, and for some reason i thought it was juniors AND seniors that were exempt. I am obviously all for the restrictions, but i too agree that i would prefer seniors be exempt.

By: r-man
Date:21-Jul-16

3 points plus on at least one side is better, The deer wont let me measure the rack , 13" each is difficult to judge in two seconds we have to shoot.

Date:22-Jul-16

In MN, when they modeled different APR, 3 on a side was less effective than 4 on a side.

Date:22-Jul-16

Stick n String, please check page 26 of your PA Digest. Seniors are not exempt from AR's in PA.

Genesis, I ask because I am curious. You state that 'High Grading is real' but at the same time state the 'impossibility of genetic manipulation outside an enclosure'. Isn't high grading genetic manipulation?

Date:22-Jul-16

12 Yards, You are correct on that point. The first few years of AR here in Pa. substantially increased the number of bucks making it to the next age class but the public out cry to reduce it to 3 a side and not have to check for the brow tine was intense and the PGC capitulated and made it just "3up". I would say from my observations and trailcam surveys that it probably reduced the number of bucks making it to the next age class by 20% to 25%. All in all though it has been much better than the alternative of no AR"s!! Last year over 60% of all bucks taken in Pa. were 2.5+. That was totally unheard of 15 years ago. AR's along with the education learning curve that many of the hunters in Pa. have evolved through after many years of seeing what can happen if you "let'm go so they can grow" holds continued promise for the future.

Date:22-Jul-16

I personally like the 13" ...makes people think before they shoot! Also prevents the nicer young bucks with truly excellent genetics from being picked green.

Date:22-Jul-16

"Genesis, I ask because I am curious. You state that 'High Grading is real' but at the same time state the 'impossibility of genetic manipulation outside an enclosure'. Isn't high grading genetic manipulation?"

Your not only curious but obviously alot smarter than me!

Edit "impossibility of FAVORABLE genetic manipulation WITH ANTLER RESTRICTIONS outside an enclosure.

I worked under the assumption that manipulation was to increase score by antler restrictions only and cut some corners in my statement

Date:22-Jul-16

drycreek's embedded Photo

One thing I don't like about our 13" rule. This buck is gonna die of old age unless someone breaks the law and shoots him anyway.

By: LKH
Date:23-Jul-16

Years ago in the Steens Mountains in OR they had the rifle hunters limited by both permit numbers and 4 points (not counting brow) on at least one antler.

You can't believe the monster 2 and 3 points that resulted after a number of years. 30+ were not that uncommon.

Eventually they dropped the point restriction.

Archers could shoot anything with antlers but we really never affected the herd that much.

Date:23-Jul-16

We a know there are exceptions to the rule. I have seen 1.5 year old 12 pointers too. I do know that after Missouri instituted the 4 points on one side A.R. there are a lot more 3.5 y.o. bucks and we see noticeably bigger and older deer on average, at least up until two bad years of EHD took the majority of our local deer population.

Date:27-Jul-16

IMHO I strongly prefer inside spread to points. If you have to pause and think if a buck is wide enough to shoot, based on my 30+ years of bow and gun hunting, the odds are he isn't big enough to begin with.

I don't recall ever regretting letting what I thought was a small buck walk that ended up being a definite "shooter", but had more than a few cases of "antler shrink" once the buck was down. That 13 pointer I spoke of previously is a prime case in point.

Just my experience, YMV.

Date:27-Jul-16

OK I will concede that point restrictions aren't entirely pointless, but IMHO they don't have as big an impact on QDM as those who are for them as they thought, at least not on any of the public land where I've hunted that had them.

Here in Indiana our one buck a year rule I think worked better than antler restrictions, but I do think combining the two would be much more impactful than one or the other.

By: doug
Date:27-Jul-16

it don't matter, when cwd hits the herd the'ye done.

By: Matte
Date:27-Jul-16

I am all for a spread and points restriction. This may let the bucks that have it in their genes live long enough to get smart and deer are to easy to kill as it what is wrong with letting them live a little longer.

By: Ollie
Date:27-Jul-16

If you want older bucks and to increase the average antler size then you have to come up with some form of restrictions. There are a lot of ways that can be tried. Outside of aging deer on the hoof, which most hunters are not good at, there is no fool-proof method to use and there will always be exceptions that you can use to validate whatever your opinion may be. The only certainty is that if you shoot that young buck with promising potential, it will never grow into a bigger, mature buck!

Date:27-Jul-16

I've seen mixed results. Here in NY, they instituted a 3pt minimum several years ago. It has positively impacted the number of older bucks around our place. However, it's also left me frustrated. I've got a 5 or 6 yr old 2x2 on my place I desperately want out of the gene pool--with no avenue to get it done. I also lived in Rockies when the Fish and Game instituted 3pt restrictions in certain areas. Numerous bucks were shot and left to rot in the field because they didn't meet the legal requirement. I've often thought a self reporting modest fine should have gone along with the rule to prevent the waste.

Date:28-Jul-16

elkaddict, is there an exemption for kids in your state? You could always bring a youngster out to take him out.

Date:28-Jul-16

The article assumes that if you let a 1.5 year old buck walk, you will kill a trophy 4.5 year old buck. I wish it were that simple. With antler restrictions, less people will shoot a buck and the average buck taken will be older. It sucks for the guys that just want to kill any buck but its nice for anybody who wants to hold out for at least a 2 year old buck because more of the deer survive to that point. APR don't affect genetics but they do affect age classes.


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