| Cattle vs. Hunter question... |
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By:
EmbryOklahoma
Date:26-Jan-16
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I'm waffling back and forth on this topic. So, you have 1250 acres. Bowhunting only. Leased land. The landowner wants to also lease it for cattle grazing. If given the chance to add additional hunters, 6-8 more to keep from cattle being placed on land. Would you add hunters (again, if an option), or don't sweat the 100-120 head of cattle?
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By:
Bear Track
Date:26-Jan-16
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Cattle are often taken off pasture land during hunting season and you have your 1250 acres to yourself again.
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By:
Charlie Rehor
Date:26-Jan-16
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Neither option works for me. If cattle are grazing in the pasture that means you have much less than 1250 acres to hunt. Deer will go where cattle aren't and additional Hunters will have the same effect.
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By:
Rock
Date:26-Jan-16
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I have hunted and shot Deer when there are Cattle in the pasture and actually within Bow range. Does not seem to bother the Deer much.
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By:
jdee
Date:26-Jan-16
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Cattle showed up last Nov while I was sitting in a stand and although the deer didn't spook it kept them on high alert with all the noise grazing cattle make. The deer would finally give in and leave. That happened a couple of times right at prime time.That was on over 10,000 acres...the deer and the cattle both knew where the best feed was...I wouldn't like either option
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By:
EmbryOklahoma
Date:26-Jan-16
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Hey Charlie... You pay the difference to keep the cattle out and you can come hunt Oklahoma too. :)
Pat... No feeders and no plots either. All natural. 60% wooded.
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By:
glacier
Date:26-Jan-16
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It depends on how the grazing lease is structured. Bring in a larger number of cattle for a shorter period of time, and the cattle will help clear some of the old, dead grass. Then you can pull the cattle off in time to have the grasses and vegetation recover and let the deer get back to their regular routine before hunting season. There are many studies that show that elk will follow cattle, moving into areas about 2-3 weeks after grazing when the nice fresh grass is regrowing. I am not sure if there are any studies that show how deer will react...
If there are sensitive areas (bedding areas, brushy corridors, food plots, etc) maybe you can get some fencing to keep cattle out of those areas. Properly managed cattle can be utilized as a tool to improve habitat. But if you have no control over how they will be managed, they will be a real nuisance. Probably the worst way to manage it would be to turn a small number of cattle in and leave them all grazing season. Then they will camp out on any water sources, trample brush and ruin bedding areas.
Cattle themselves are not good or bad, it is really a question of management and what time of year the cattle will be grazing.
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By:
EmbryOklahoma
Date:26-Jan-16
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I'm also with you guys on the "neither option". But frankly, I'm not super wealthy or this wouldn't even be a question. I'm also not going to be the type that gets butthurt over the landowner profiting off of his land. I'm still grateful.
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By:
jdee
Date:26-Jan-16
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+1 Embry I don't like but nothing I could do about it and wasn't about to tell my buddy to move his cows off his hunting land. But it is APITA because the cattle could care less about the deer but the deer will move on and all you can do is watch them go.
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By:
EmbryOklahoma
Date:26-Jan-16
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Thanks for your input, glacier. Appreciate it.
To enlighten everyone even more, I've hunted this land for quite some time. The last time we had cattle was 2008. I noticed the cattle would primarily remain in the fields and around a few ponds. Fortunately, there are numerous thick draws and bedding areas along a major creek the runs through the place. This always seemed to be a barrier of sorts and made numerous areas somewhat inaccessible because of deep banks or thick trees/briars. It did isolate them some as well.
As far as being managed, I have no say in that. Except if I see an overgrazing issue, I am to notify the owner. I believe they will be there year around also. I guess a plus will be is the fields will be eaten down and the turkeys should come back on. They left as soon as the grass got knee high.
Thanks for your comments.
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By:
LINK
Date:26-Jan-16
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An option might be for you to lease the cattle lease and then sublease with your restrictions. No cattle September 15-January 15, maybe a number restriction and so on. In the right place cattle might not effect much but you'll have to fence off plots/ feeders.
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By:
drycreek
Date:26-Jan-16
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What jdee said is true. I had a lease for 18 years that had cattle on it. 1400 acres and the cows would show up just at the most inopportune times. Once I had a nice buck chasing a hot doe all around an isolated mesquite thicket and I knew it was just a matter of time. She had already brought him in front of me twice, but no shot opportunity. Here comes the rancher ( a lady ) in her Dodge diesel ( checking on her cows ), and the doe jumped the property line fence and of course the buck followed. Nothing I could do but cry ! She wasn't even aware that I was there. When I leased the place, her husband was alive, and he was very considerate of where we were hunting and would avoid us. But when he passed, all that changed. I kept the place for several more years, but it just got tougher and tougher to put up with her ignorance or apathy, whichever it was. She was a nice lady, but just thoughtless about when and where to show up. If I had said anything to her about it, it wouldn't have gone well, because she was already paranoid about being taken advantage of because she was female. Best to just move along. I still turkey hunt there once a year, and the guy I passed the lease onto has about had his fill too. Last year she started clearing a fence row on opening weekend of rifle season. I hope you fare better Embry !
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By:
TD
Date:26-Jan-16
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If talking deer, we have areas that are unhuntable WITHOUT cattle. The cattle keep the jungle knocked down or places get so bad you can't walk through it much less get a shot.
The deer like the thick stuff to bed in.... to a degree. They need open areas as well, but don't feed enough to keep it down. They seem to like some open areas to socialize too. Areas where they run the cattle and keep things broken up actually tend to hold more deer than if it was just a solid mass of vegetation.
The cattle normally use one area a day or 2, or are paddocked off area by area and pattern pretty much like deer do. You can sometimes pattern the deer off the cattle.
We don't "lease" the places, but do help with moving cattle or fencing, building/welding up gates, waterlines, security, etc. Without the cattle (and the ranchers) we wouldn't have half the places to hunt we do.
Elk hunting they can be a pain, mostly they are wilder and when you bump a herd up everything in the drainage knows where you are....
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By:
midwest
Date:26-Jan-16
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The best farm I use to hunt for over 20 years always had cattle on it. There was no where close to 60% timber. After the harvest, the cattle were turned out into the cut corn and bean fields and I'd never be bothered by them but even when they were still running the pastures, I had very few problems with them. This farm was LOADED with deer, too.
They were not fenced out of the timber patches but rarely entered the timber so the deer had no problem bedding. There were also thick patches of multiflora rose that the cattle managed to keep some trails open through.
I believe the cattle may have reduced the deer habitat some but I also believe they created better funnels by keeping the open areas open and somewhat forcing the deer to hug the brushy fence lines when crossing between timber patches.
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By:
IdyllwildArcher
Date:26-Jan-16
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I like Link's idea. Or you could ask the LO how much it'd cost you to not have cattle there during the hunting months.
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By:
Bake
Date:26-Jan-16
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Different experiences for sure.
The bigger problem with cattle is they graze or trample all the little forbs that deer so love, and they also trample and discourage growth of woody browse around their favored shade trees, tree lines, etc.
They'll also cause browse lines on the tree lines. They'll browse out of reach of deer.
The farm I hunt grazes cattle on half, and leases the other half to another cattleman. The other cattleman hasn't been grazing two large fields.
The deer are in those large fields like crazy, and avoid the areas with cattle.
I agree cattle can benefit the ground by grazing some of the grasses away, and allowing room for the forbs and little legumes, but if cattle aren't rotated, those little legumes and forbs will be trampled or gone.
It sucks. I hate the cows
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By:
LKH
Date:26-Jan-16
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I graze cattle on my place in MT. Simply put, the deer just don't use the pastures the cattle are in. They may cross, but don't graze. A few weeks after the cattle are out the deer will be back if things are still growing.
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By:
Hessticles
Date:26-Jan-16
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I hunt about 800 acres with 70% timber. Usually the cattle are off the ground by September 1st and then during rut I have deer running all over in a secluded river bottom. This year they put the cattle to graze in june and never took them out until November 10th. Way overgrazed and every time the cattle seen me or my truck they would just chase me. I never seen a 1/4 of the deer I usually do and I had seen a 160ish 6 times with 3 of them in bow range until the cattle seen him and chased him off! Never did see him again after the last time. So hopefully last year was a fluke and they continue to have them out by sept 1st. I hate hunting with cattle on the same ground!!!
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By:
EmbryOklahoma
Date:26-Jan-16
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What's funny about this place is I did notice an increase of does the first two years when the guy that used to run cattle, removed them. Once the grasses got considerably high, you would hardly ever see the deer in the fields and again, the turkeys completely left the place. Now, a lot of the fields are/were knee to waist high except where we mowed paths around a few perimeters of the fields. Just nothing nutritional for them at this point in the high dead grass. Again, I think the cattle will be a nuisance at first, but we will adapt, and as humans, we are pretty good in that department.
As far as the cattle goes... I'd like to be able to say when and where he can put cattle, but at this point, he (LO) wants me to make sure the land is not over grazed. We know how many head it will permit and within his (cattle guy) agreement he is told not to over-graze. I will be counting the heads for sure.
I will be talking with the LO also about fencing a few short sections off that will keep the cattle from crossing the major creek during certain periods as well. This will isolate a few major bedding areas. Regardless, we will have to get along or the landowner can simply move us both down the road. I hate the thought of cattle but I also hate the thought of a bunch of new hunters running about. Or worse, not having this place at all.
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By:
drycreek
Date:26-Jan-16
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I believe I would rather deal with the cows vs the hunters too Embry. At least the cows won't be shooting any bucks !
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By:
Matt
Date:26-Jan-16
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I think that, in many places, properly rotated grazing can benefit the deer. The ranch I hunted this past fall was ~800 acres (~50% timber) and fenced into a number of smaller pastures with frequent rotation. There was no dead grass in the areas inside the electric fences and the deer would quickly travel through ungrazed areas to go to the grazed areas. They seem to love the new growth that comes up when after cattle are removed.
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By:
HANS1
Date:26-Jan-16
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I would take the cows to the additional hunters. To hunt and have big deer the number one factor needed is age. As was stated in one of the above posts the cows don't shoot deer. A few benifits to the cows are some tolerance to people ie. The deer become more tolerant to trucks doing normal farm work. Also you will always have water on the ranch. Good luck it sounds like you are on the right track with your mindset .
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By:
RutNut_@work
Date:26-Jan-16
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The short of it is, will deer tolerate cattle? Yes they will. But the cattle will alter normal deer patterns, as will all the attention from tending to the cattle. Then again, that may be a safer bet than taking on more "hunters".
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By:
JohnB
Date:27-Jan-16
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Cattle or hunters? Surely the cattle taste better!
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By:
Lost Arra
Date:27-Jan-16
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I agree 100% with HANS1. Cattle bother hunters more than they bother deer and with the escalating price of beef I would expect more cattle on more ranches.
I hunt a cattle ranch (also Okla) and regularly see deer in the woods watch as the rancher drives by honking his horn to feed and the deer never flinch.
About once a season I'll have some cattle walk under my stand but I've found they provide a good noise cover when walking to my stand in the dark. It is a nuisance if they stay huddled right under your tree but that has been very rare.
I would be happy to have a place to hunt without more hunters.
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By:
12yards
Date:27-Jan-16
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The most terrified I've ever been was when I came face to face with the farmers bull. No thanks on the cattle.
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By:
Oakie
Date:27-Jan-16
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Hey Rick,
It always humors me to read people saying cattle ruin the hunting. I've never hunted ground in OK that didn't have cattle on it and I've done fine. That being said, it's most always had cattle around.
The cattle will change things somewhat, but the deer aren't going to leave. The cattle will eat your acorns, and if you have a plot or feeder you just have to put up a little fence w/LO permission.
The deer will become accustomed to all the new proceedings very quickly. Probably within a week. A daily feed truck visit won't even phase the deer. In fact they'll probably scramble to eat the crumbled leftovers after the cattle meander away. Some ranchers I know put out a little feed and have deer rush in to the truck in winter just to show their kids 10-15 doe. Think of it this way, what's going to be more disturbing to a deer... land that's never seen a human visitor until deer season when suddenly your stinky butt is showing up in a truck every weekend and walking around... or land that has a cattle rancher and truck going through it nearly every day of the year? The deer will actually tolerate your presence MORE as a result of the rancher.
I've seen deer walk right through the middle of cattle, and I've seen them skirt the cattle. But I've never in my life seen a whitetail deer snort or spook at a cow.
As others have stated, cattle will trample some areas. But the deer will then use that as a food source when it gets some warm sun on it and pops up fresh green grass first. One of my favorite shed hunting areas in March is where the rancher daily feeds his cattle. They trample the ground out, it gets littered with hay and creep feed crumbles, and the deer flock to it in late winter as a food source. It's like anything else. The deer will adjust and you just figure out what they're doing in the new situation.
My biggest concern for them is that they do from time to time disturb and even eliminate thick brushy areas where a buck might take cover.
Whatever you do though, if you have them come through while you're hunting, try not to alert them to your presence or try to run them off. They'll just stand there and stare at you until you get down. :-)
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By:
bowriter
Date:27-Jan-16
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Go with the cows. Deer will become accustomed to them fairly quickly although, in some cases, they will not closely associate with them. If you are in a stand and some cattle come by, they may well move the deer out. But as soon as the cattle move on, the deer come back relatively quickly.
The cattkle also provide super scent protection for your boots. :)
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By:
Franzen
Date:27-Jan-16
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IMO, I would take cattle over people any day. Bottom line is you know that people will affect your hunt. Cattle may not, and even if they do, it should be reasonable to re-pattern.
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By:
EmbryOklahoma
Date:27-Jan-16
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Thanks for the discussion everyone!
Jeremy... you're right on a lot of what you said. I hunted the first 8-9 years with cattle on this place. I'm sure it will be very similar as before. Also, since I don't hunt over feeders or plots, that's no worry. Honestly, I might have put in some plots before when there wasn't cattle, but pigs will destroy them, so that is a no go.
A lot of really good points above....
HANS1.. Agreed! I'll also give my experience with the past and the ebs and flows of the place. When I first started hunting the place it was a 10 hunter lease and under different management. Within that 10 hunter lease, each could bring their spouse to hunt, and child under 16. ALL SEASONS WERE OPEN. Therefore the age structure was diminished over time with the excessive young buck harvest. There was also 120-140 head of cattle on the place as well as regular well truck traffic to the two gas wells.
Since I've taken it over in 2008, I put the lease at 6 hunters and bow only. Two deer (one doe/one buck) and also gave an incentive to kill mature deer by adding that if your first buck exceeds 115", you can also kill your second buck there too, but has to be a GOOD one. Again, they have that option to kill what they want for their first buck. Also with the excess of does, I've always allowed everyone to kill more than just the one. Over the last 8 years, age structure has blossomed and there are more PnY Bucks running around than ever. As many of you know and have eluded to, it's not rocket science... It's getting them to maturity. Simple.
Franzen... A challenge makes it rewarding and it will be somewhat of a new challenge to "re pattern" and figure it out again. So, I agree with you.
Like I've stated above, the turkeys also left when the grass got tall and hopefully once the cattle get in and get it mowed back down, they will return. I miss that part for sure! Those big Easterns were fun to hunt!
Thanks again for the talk.
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By:
Salagi
Date:27-Jan-16
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On the bus route home tonight, I saw deer and cattle grazing together.
One farm we hunt as a family the cattle are "free range" several hundred acres with no fence outside the boundary. Cattle roam through the woods and fields with deer using the same trails. In the last almost 20 years we have hunted it we have killed 2-7 or 8 deer every year (I think the average is 5 each year, I'd have to look in the tally jar to be sure). That's from 4 to 6 of us hunting each year. Now most are rifle kills but there are muzzleloader and bow kills also. Worst thing with the cows is you do have to pick your rifle shots carefully as sometimes the cows start wandering through the woods pretty close to the deer.
Yes I'd rather not have the cattle there, but it really doesn't hurt us much. I do prefer it when they are over by my oldest nephew's stand instead of mine though. ;)
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By:
BoggsBowhunts
Date:27-Jan-16
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Well atleast cattle don't kill all of your hitlisters! :)
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By:
TD
Date:27-Jan-16
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You certainly don't want to leave a pop-up unattended.... saw what happens when a guy that used to hunt the same property tried one.... cattle totally destroyed it in less than a day.
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Date:28-Jan-16
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All I know I use to hunt on a beautiful piece of river bottom that was about a 1000 acres and was unbelievable hunting.... The guy who let me hunt let a rancher start grazing it with half the amount of castle your talking about and it was a major pain on the @%$.... Everytime I moved a stand out saw deer out tried anything for that matter the cattle were around me! Plus they just flat year a place up! I like property to be overgrown to an extent and stayed untouched ie; no trucks ranch hands etc..... Which you have all of with cattle. IMO it dropped the hunting quality down by half. Literally. Especially if there's good undisturbed land adjacent to it as the deer WILL move to the less disturbed property and they'll do it quickly. Ranchers tell me all the time that they see so many deer and huge bucks when they're out feeding out moving cattle but you have to realize their out there 24/7/365 so I'm sure they do occasionally see deer! They'll won't move out entirely but the majority will and the big boys don't like humans period it doesn't matter if they're in a tree stand or opening a fence! Jmo but I've seen it first hand!
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Date:29-Jan-16
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I will be glad to hunt your cattle pastures. In the last 10 years ive taken 6 bucks over 140" and the largest being 172",all out of a 160 acre pasture, about 30% timber and the rest grazed fescue. Deer get used to farmers, I know, because I farm, and see tons of deer while im on a 4 wheeler or on a tractor. Of course some deer will spook, but more are gonna stay bedded down. The largest 8 point I shot walked out of the thicket across 10 acres of open grass and underneath the group of 3 oak trees, one of which I was sitting in. Makes it easy to drive the 4 wheeler up to the deer and no drag. Don't over look pastures for good hunting. I would much rather have cows than hunters. Hunters are headaches.
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By:
Coolcop
Date:29-Jan-16
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This is my experience hunting with cattle. 10 years ago we had a giant that seemed to like being out in the cow pasture. After seeing him numerous times I hung a stand near an apple tree. I had never bow hunted the pasture before and was excited about getting a shot at Mr. Horns we called him.
I cut my last class on opening day so I could get home and get settled in long before Mr. Horns showed up. About 30 minutes after climbing in my stand 30 cows showed up. They were all around me and some staring right at me bellering. The thing I didn't take into account was fall means shorter pastures. Shorter pastures means supplemental feeding. I had ridden in the truck with gramps and helped throw feed out that night. After we fed the cows gramps drove me partway to my blind. I'm sure the cows watched me walk to the blind and they came to get more corn when theirs was gone.
They wouldn't leave so I went home early.
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By:
DartonJager
Date:30-Jan-16
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The way I would look at it is simple. Cattle may or may not affect your deer hunting and if they do the deer will almost certainly get use to their presence as cattle are as common in a deer's life as are cattle fences.
There is no way on earth more hunters WILL NOT have an immediate, negative and lasting if not permanent impact on your hunting.
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By:
DamnBubba
Date:30-Jan-16
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All my spots have cattle. For the most part the deer will pattern around the cattle, you will pattern around the deer. It really isn't a big deal.
For every day the cattle drive the deer away from you, there will be a day they drive deer towards you.
I will add a warning.... do not let the cattle see you in your stand, they will stand around and watch you for lengthy periods of time. Stay concealed and let them move on.
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By:
EmbryOklahoma
Date:30-Jan-16
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Good points everyone! I'm sure it will be fine with the cows, again. I've hunted with them before and as some of you figured, I knew the answer before posting this question. You guys just confirmed it.
Also, I do like the fact that a lot of the heavy brush and grass won't be so tall. Which makes it easier to get from stand to stand. Another plus is it will make it easier to do some predator calling to kill some yotes with the grass down.
Thanks all!
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By:
flyingbrass
Date:30-Jan-16
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neither
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By:
Mailman
Date:30-Jan-16
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Deer and cattle have been living together for hundreds of years. Get over it.
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By:
jdee
Date:30-Jan-16
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Yea they will be in the same pastures it's when you are trying to get a mature buck into bow range. If the cows are under your stand the deer won't be under it. They might be close and they might live on the same ground but they don't like to stay close to cattle and mingle with them.
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By:
deerman406
Date:30-Jan-16
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Agree with southernillbowhunter. I would keep the cattle and pass on the hunters. A lot depends on how and where they graze. If there is a hot wire to keep them out or in certain areas and you can keep them away from your food plots and such. I would take the cattle. I killed a 160" buck this year on an 800 acres piece that had about 100 head on it. It did not seem to effect the deer movement and I actually saw deer interact with the cattle on a few occassions. Shawn
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By:
Genesis
Date:31-Jan-16
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Find a good used Chik- fil-a suit and the hunt is on
