| How many states want to kill your does |
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By:
Pat C.
Date:08-Dec-13
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Here in Ia. they give buque doe tags. Which I beleave is because the Special interest groups like The Farm Bureau. And others. Now I understand that the farmers aren't in business to feed deer. But on a thread on the Ia. forum ,The DNR told him he would need to shoot 40 does a year for 3 or 4 years. To stop the damage to his crops. Is it just me or is that special interest talking?
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By:
Knife2sharp
Date:08-Dec-13
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WI is another. It will be like fishing where the fishermen need.to self manage the resource by practicing catch and release. Hunters are finally catching on that their state pretty much offers limitless doe tags. This may have been OK a decade or so ago, but many regions have been dealing an over harvest of the does. The last time I shot a doe was when our state had an earn a buck season. To be honest I haven't seen a mature doe on stand since and that was several years ago. The only antlerless does I see are fawns. I used to live in MN and their DNR is just as bad. They tell the hunters there are a million deer in the state, LOL. I understand there are exceptions, so if you do happen to be in an area with an over abundance of does, then by all means, fill the freezer. But if you are one of those hunters that used to shoot 2+ does a year and are now asking where are the does, then duhh.
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By:
drycreek
Date:08-Dec-13
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We did that a few years ago here. Our hunting license came with 4 doe tags. A couple years of that and people went to complaining. Now some areas of Texas have too many deer, but not in East Texas where I live.
My main concern with our current plan is the shooting of spikes. We are in an antler restriction county, where bucks wider than 13" inside or spikes are legal. I can't imagine the benefit of killing spikes. Most of them are yearling deer.
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By:
GameEarGabe
Date:08-Dec-13
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Pa sealed their fate when they went to a 2 week doe season that coincided with Buck season.
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By:
dillkill
Date:08-Dec-13
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...and we are paying for that in PA now. The PAGC here is a joke when it comes to deer management. I continue to vent my disgust by emailing them regularly.
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By:
dillkill
Date:08-Dec-13
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...and we are paying for that in PA now. The PAGC here is a joke when it comes to deer management. I continue to vent my disgust by emailing them regularly.
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By:
APauls
Date:08-Dec-13
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Manitoba is the biggest joke of all. A couple winters that killed over 50% of the heard EACH time and they're still handing out MULTIPLE doe tags on top of the general tag in some areas. Crying shame. You go for an all day hunt and simply hope to see a deer in areas I used to see 40/day.
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By:
CCOVEY
Date:08-Dec-13
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It seems as though Kansas wants too. Not my state but I hunt it and chose not to shoot any due to EHD. They gave non resident free doe tags this year with the purchase of ur buck tag and had a 2 week gun doe hunt prior to archery.
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By:
bow27
Date:09-Dec-13
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Don't just blame the states! Hunters are doing the killing. A lot of this started when people started pushing A/R's. All the "If you want meat shoot a doe" BS. Well people did and now what.
Unfortunately the states don't care if the #'s are low only a few hunters complain. When #'s are high ALL people complain, eating my bushes, all over the roads crop damage, Hunters complain the deer buck:doe balance Etc
All the TV shows advocate shooting does but they hunt ares loaded with deer and managed that way. With huge deer #'s and low controlled hunter density they advocate shooting does. Ares without the deer and unrestricted hunter access wipe out a herd in no time.
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By:
Show-Me Greg
Date:09-Dec-13
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Missouri is one that allows it, but it is the hunters that are doing the shooting. Just because something is legal and/or allowed doesn't make it right!
Most counties have unlimited doe tags for archery and firearms season. We have an 11 day "antlerless" season following the 10 day firearms season. Then an 11 day "alternative" season where any weapon except a centerfire or rimfire is allowed. As a landowner, every member of my family is GIVEN 7 tags. 3 are "any" deer and 4 are "antlerless" only.
Not seeing many deer this year compared to last year. again......Just because something is legal and/or allowed doesn't make it right! JMO
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By:
Ogoki
Date:09-Dec-13
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Ohio
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By:
writer
Date:09-Dec-13
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CCOVEY is incorrect...
Kansas DID NOT have a 2 WEEK gun doe hunt prior to archery...and I have no clue where that came from.
We do have a nine day youth season for any deer, and archery and muzzleloader share about the first 11 days of archery season, again for any deer.
There was a two day whitetail doe season in mid-October, in the middle of archery season.
As for the non-resident buck/doe combo tag, that's a "gift" from the state legislature who continually think they know more about the state's herd than state biologists or the avid hunters who are paying attention to actual facts.
The legislature demanded a combo permit be offered, meaning for all hunters. Wildlife and Parks was able to confine it to just non-residents.
Yes, Kansas does allow the killing up of to about seven does in some management hunts,...but how many hunters do that? Seriously?
I know of one, a great BOWHUNTER, and the 20,000 acres or so he helps manage for wildlife has the kind of habitat that can hold high deer densities, and does.
I know of quite a few gun hunters this December that say they won't shoot a doe because numbers are too low....
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By:
Zebow
Date:09-Dec-13
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Ohio already has. This is the worst season I've had in 28 years of deer hunting.
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By:
BigAl
Date:09-Dec-13
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Deer can't be micro-managed, sometimes it would be nice if they could. I hunt in western NY and, where I hunt, there are definitely too many doe. It's all private land consisting of, primarily, large vegetable farms. Deer heaven! Unfortunately, the guys who have permission to hunt the area(s) do what most guys will do...let the doe go and hold out for a big buck, which are there. Oh sure, a certain number of doe are shot each year but not nearly enough. Unlimited doe permits are available but this does no good unless there's unlimited access. As an example, I was sitting a twenty acre field edge one afternoon in early bow season; four young bucks plus twenty-one doe came out. Then the flip side...on most state and public land, of which I hunt some every year, they could eliminate the use of doe tags completely, perhaps allowing their use every few years. But this is micro-managing and would severely impact license sales so you'll never see it.
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By:
bigswivle
Date:09-Dec-13
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In Florida you can shoot as many does as you want in bow season. Then in November we have doe week. Then you can apply for as many doe permits as you want(subject to an inspection from a qualified game warden of your land)
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By:
JusPassin
Date:09-Dec-13
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The DNR officer here in Iowa has told us that by their own count our numbers are down 50% from 2005, and they'd like them lower.
I haven't taken a doe since 2006, and point that out to hunters with does in the back of their pickups bemoaning the low deer numbers.
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By:
Jack Harris
Date:09-Dec-13
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NJ had earnabuck and unlimitted antlersless for many years now, and keep giving more of that to gun hunters even into February. They have gone way to far, numbers are way down, along with hunter satisfaction.
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED NJ!
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By:
Pat C.
Date:09-Dec-13
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Bruce I herd it was down but 50% wow thats alot!!
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By:
Bowfreak
Date:09-Dec-13
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Where I hunt in KY was decimated 10 years ago by unlimited doe harvest. It is slowly coming back. In western and northern KY they can't kill enough does. I was talking with a local game warden the other day and he was telling me we have more deer in my county than we ever had. I respectfully disagreed and told him to ask any farmer how many deer they see now when cutting hay or other tasks compared to 15 years ago and see what they say.
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By:
Brotsky
Date:09-Dec-13
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South Dakota wants it's herd reduced to 0. I could have had over 20 doe tags this year if I desired. Our total deer population is 179,000. We have around 10k hunters. If we all get 20 doe tags....do the math.
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By:
One Who Knows
Date:09-Dec-13
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Add Virginia to the list.. Farm Bureau pushes it.. And they hand out summer kill permits like Halloween Candy no matter the affected acreage
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By:
Bentstick81
Date:09-Dec-13
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Illinois. The DNR don't care what, or how many you shoot, just buy as many permits you can.
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By:
T-Rex
Date:09-Dec-13
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Michigan - A couple of years ago here you could buy 5 doe tags a day. I don't know where they get their info from but there isn't any place that I can think of in Michigan that you can even consistently see 5 does a day once the orange army hits the woods.
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By:
RutNut
Date:09-Dec-13
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"But this is micro-managing and would severely impact license sales so you'll never see it."
That is what it's all about right there. State DNR's don't give a damn about the quality of the hunt, or the health of the herd. The ONLY thing they care about is money. To the point they will LIE about deer numbers to sell more licences to get more money. At least that is what's going on here in WI.
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By:
markx500
Date:09-Dec-13
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VIRGINIA ... 7 week rifle season ... 3 bucks and 3 does on the standard tag ... plus you can run dogs in many counties, including mine. Puts the herd under a lot of pressure (at least they have Sundays off here). They do vary doe days between urban and rural counties, so there is some formula in place. However, seeing dead deer on I64 means they are still not happy with the herd size. Been mighty tough hunting here last 2 years ... time for another road trip.
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By:
steve
Date:09-Dec-13
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CT had earnabuck and unlimited antlerless in some areas for many years too .For the last 5 years deer have been on the decline but the state says keep killing them and some guys do, they brag of shooting over 30 deer and wonder why they dont see them anymore ..
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By:
Tatonka
Date:09-Dec-13
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Antlerless deer certainly need to be shot where there are too many deer.....the problem (there are several) is that F&G departments tend to be too slow to react to various issues with the deer herds (regardless of what state you live in). An area might have far too many deer but if EHD hits and the tags are already sold it's pretty tough to change the regs...
Another factor not mentioned is Insurance Companies and their power to influence F&G regs... In states where there are a large number of claims from vehicle/deer collisions, the Insurance Companies take a licking. A few years back I was told that a state (can't remember for sure but it might have been Ohio) was allowing hunters to kill does long after the herd was reduced to very low numbers....all because the Insurance Companies had some very good Lobbyists...
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By:
bowriter
Date:09-Dec-13
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In my part of TN, the limit on does is three per day for the entire season, any equpiment. Approximately 112 days=336 does.
Of course, noone kills that many, 35 is the most I have heard of in one year and that was spread across several counties.
In the past few years, our deer population has continued to steadily increase over most of the area. few hunters will kill more than they can actually use or give away.
However, it is erroneous to say "...kill our deer." They are not your deer. They are the property of the state.
All of that is not to say, in some states the doe bag limit may be too liberal. That would be especially true in states with high unter density and limited habitat. However, it is almost always EHD that decreaases a deer population, not hunters. But if you combine and EHD outbreak with a high doe kill, you may certainly damage your deer population. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to micro manage deer on a statewide level.
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By:
Vtec15
Date:09-Dec-13
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Massachusetts has no interest in deer management, doe tags have and will continue to be handed out in high numbers. Our problem is some (mainly suburbs)hold tons of deer but cant be hunted while other pockets get hammered! Our biggest issue in my mind is the two buck tags!! drop one and we would at least keep some young bucks around, our herd has been declining as well like ct in the past 10 yrs .
I think main issues that will keep doe tags up are lime disease and car accidents
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By:
DL
Date:09-Dec-13
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We are only allowed to kill them if they are in the road with a motor vehicle. We don't get to keep them just kill them.
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By:
WV Mountaineer
Date:09-Dec-13
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How many of you guys work in the woods and understand forest ecology? How many know what a whitetail really needs to thrive? How many know how much browse a deer eats per year on average? How many know that 80% of a deer's diet is browse? How many have done the leg work your dnr biologist have to determine what the herd needs for long term health? How many know the percentage of total population hunters make up in the state they are complaining about?
It takes more than crops to grow and hold them. Not proclaiming to know your situation just wandering. And have no intention of arguing about it. Be curious to see how many know these things. God Bless
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By:
Kevin Dill
Date:09-Dec-13
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Insurance companies definitely have strong lobbying power at the statehouse. Even stronger than insurance lobbyists are the farmers in most states. Here in Ohio there are approximately 75,000 farms producing about 10 billion dollars in cash receipts each year. They're also paying property taxes on over 16,000,000 acres of farm land. Deer hunters can't muster near the political power of farmers and the insurance industry. If it wasn't for the state's ability to make money from hunters, there would be very little reason for the state to want deer numbering in the hundreds of thousands. When you look at it objectively, it's a wonder we even have a sustainable deer herd. 23,000 deer collisions last year means 23,000 people (at least) with an unfavorable opinion of the deer population. I think the ODNR does intend to lower the deer numbers and keep them lower than the historic highs of about a decade ago.
Here on my land in southeast Ohio I still commonly see deer in groups of 6-10, and have seen as many as 24 deer at once from my back deck in the past year. This is on 100% hunted land, too. The numbers where I live are fine, but 15 miles away they may be very low.
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By:
jack rehacek
Date:09-Dec-13
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Michigan DNR wants use to killem all. In one county that I hunt had 4500 doe permits issued, This is in the U.P. where we just were comeing off a very bad winter. I don't think there are 4500 does in Iron Co. We only saw a handful of deer this year( not good). My camp hasn't shot any does in three years and we are not going to in the future. I think its time to go back and have doe permit burning parties.
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By:
Buffalo1
Date:09-Dec-13
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MS law allows 3 bucks and 5 does per year.
If land is under the DMAP Program (quality mgt. program) is herd size allows more doe permits can be obtain to keep the herd size within mgt. limits.
Biologists say that at least 1/3 of herd population must be killed annually just to keep herd size in check. If overpopulation exist then more deer should be taken to get herd size in balance with carrying capacity.
Some areas of the state have been shot out and other areas are overpopulated. No real small management units exist like in states like Wy, Co., etc. We have 3 management area so real managemment cannot not really occur as needed.
We no longer have a true primitive weapon season with black powder guns. We have pseudo primitive replica guns that shoot real ammunition 35 cal, 45/70, 444 etc. It is a joke. Next year this season will all regular long rifles on private property and will be able to hunt does only.
All laws are really favoring the shooting of more does. Sometimes a good thing and other times a bad thing.
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By:
RLong
Date:09-Dec-13
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Spoken like a true biologist....."Who has the degree here?" LOL
There is plenty of knowledge to go around in the whitetail woods. Not every hunter is a simpleton just wanting their deer. And not all of the knowledge is carried around by some little tick-turd measuring browse lines.
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By:
smokey
Date:10-Dec-13
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" It will be like fishing where the fishermen need.to self manage the resource by practicing catch and release. "
Really? Every year I hear of anglers over bagging by a lot. Coolers full of fish.
Some hunters have the same attitude. We had all time high deer numbers most every state a few years back and most states said the herds must be reduced. That is where things are today. There are still deer to hunt.
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By:
pointingdogs
Date:10-Dec-13
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Agree with Pat C. (about Iowa) & don't leave out the Auto Insurance companies as before mentioned. Lobbyists. DNR here in Iowa is all about the $$$$.
good luck to all, the dog
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By:
bowyer45
Date:10-Dec-13
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Its not new, if you want to control or eliminate the population its done by eliminating the female. If you want an increase in the population you leave them alone. That's been the management plan that brought back many endangered species for the last hundred years! Kill a buck you eliminate one, kill a doe and you eliminate many. Not news to us I know.
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By:
Pat C.
Date:10-Dec-13
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I guess the states aren't going to stop the over kill. So the hunters are going to have to do it ourselves.
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By:
Mint
Date:10-Dec-13
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The Long Island Farm Bureau just convinced the Feds to kill 3,000 to 5,000 deer on long island this February with sharpshooters to knock down the herd. As it is now i'm lucky to see a couple of deer a day let alone a nice buck.
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By:
WV Mountaineer
Date:10-Dec-13
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RLong, I'm a forester. Specialized in forestry resources management. And I wasn't suggesting anyone was dumb. It appears you did that. Only asked a very legitimate question that holds the answers to what everyone seems to be asking. God Bless
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By:
BigOzzie
Date:10-Dec-13
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I like the current practices in MT, unless you can convince me otherwise.
In the region I live in we have districts that are managed differently. Within our region you have all districts allowing does during the youth season before reg. season.
One district in the more populous areas and nearest the most roads, allowing 5 (that number changes some years it's 3 some it's 7) special doe "B" tags per person.
During years where the Fish and game feels the population in all districts are too high, there will be a one week either sex hunt during the regular season usually the first or last week (haven't seen that happen for 6-7 years).
Of course Mule deer and Elk are managed differently.
I would like to see the additions of an old geezer season where if you are over a set age you can hunt the youth season. Took Grandpa hunting with me the last couple years before he passed and he had chances at does, but never a buck, Just though he deserved increased odds like the kids. Not sure what age I would set.
oz
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By:
Pat C.
Date:10-Dec-13
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Wv you make a good point im sure there alot to this the average hunter don't know. But it's not the people like you that make the finale desition. You only make the recommendations to the law makers. Who don't seem to care what you say , But sure want to here from the lobbiest. I would be intrested in looking in to what your talking about, what it takes per deer and so on. Any recomended reading?
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By:
Pat C.
Date:10-Dec-13
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Big Ozz Im 55 Im going With 55!!
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By:
markx500
Date:10-Dec-13
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As a self-employed engineering consultant, I am always looking at numbers and it would be interesting to see certain trends and how they cycle.
Growing up in PA, the harvest report card was optional and by reports not many hunters sent them in yet the game commission always referenced those numbers. I like the fact that certain states have check stations to get firmer harvest number. Back when I took a buck in IL, you even had to measure the jawline.
Tough to do, if not altogether impossible, but it would be interesting the see an independent report of the cycles of variables such as hunter participation rate, hunter success rate, hunter sightings, game camera sightings, car collisions. Then factor in known EHD or severe weather factors.
Just a natural ebb and flow perhaps ... herds decline due to overzealous bag limits, weather, EHD, habitat loss etc. License sales drop a little due to frustration from lack of success or sightings. Herd rebounds. Reports of success spawn more hunter interest. Kind of like the wolf/moose cycle on Isle Royale in Lake Superior.
Just my 0.02
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By:
DES77
Date:10-Dec-13
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I'm seeing less deer in the areas I hunt in Missouri, I have to believe the unlimited doe tags play a part in it. Along with EHD, CWD, and poaching they can't recover quick enough.
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By:
bowriter
Date:10-Dec-13
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Just for the record, I am a biologist (U of WY class of 72) and have worked in the management field as a consutling wildlife manager on various properies.
The hardest thing for hunters to believe is that there is a huge difference between managing a particular area and managing a statewide or state segmented population. Also very few hunters understand that what they see is not always what is there. Once does become pressured as bucks are pressured, they are as hard to kill and often see as bucks.
When you understand herd state modeling, you realize it is not designed to make hunters happy. A deer population must be managed on three criteria: 1-Biology-is the management plan biologically sound for all wildlife? 2- Ecologically-is the plan sound from a ecological viewpoint. 3-Hunter satisfaction-is the plan what the MAJORITY of hunters want?
In a private management plan, those criteria can be manipulated.
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By:
Kevin Dill
Date:10-Dec-13
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I am at once always and never surprised by the relatively narrow vision of many hunters. It's entirely normal to be focused on one's own desires to hunt, and have plenty of target game to go after. Who doesn't enjoy seeing many animals in a 4 hour stand sit? I know that I do.
On the other hand, people forget that a state's game populations must be managed...at least in part...for the satisfaction of all residents. If hunters want more deer, but farmers, motorists, landowners and several industries are pushing for lower numbers, it's not going to bode well for hunters.
In some ways, many states have a vested economic interest in maintaining a significant population of deer. They sell tags of course, and it's big money when added up. No deer means a big drop in income eventually...the piper will be paid. For many states the ultimate goal is to keep every group appeased to an extent, but no one group is running the numbers show.
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By:
markx500
Date:11-Dec-13
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Last 2 posts say it all. In my prior post, I was just stating that it would be nice to have sound numbers to base decisions on. If herds and hunter interest wane, the already cash-strapped game departments will have less resources for honest research, not that the politicians would pay any heed to it.
Tough job since habitat, hunting pressure, and urbanization vary from county to county, heck even from township to township.
As long as you see dead deer along the interstate in your neck of the woods, don't expect the tags or seasons to be relaxed.
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By:
oldhunter42
Date:11-Dec-13
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now I know what deer "hunting" means a few years ago it was kinda easy not so anymore with so few deer in our area.
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By:
Bake
Date:11-Dec-13
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My sightings and pics were way down this year from years past. I spent more time in the woods in 2011, 2012 and 2013 than I ever had before. And ran a lot of cameras. Deer have been thin all 3 of those years.
I really have a tough time seeing it as a bad thing. Sure, I'd love to go back to seeing 20+ deer a sit, but in reality, the farm I hunt doesn't have the habitat to support 20+ deer per square mile.
You could claim that Missouri's unlimited antlerless tags were the problem, but I know how many does were killed, and it hasn't been excessive. 3 or 4 does per year, back to 2005 or so, on over 600 acres.
EHD might be a factor, but I've found very few deer carcasses.
I imagine poor or nonexistent mast craps were the main culprit in the past 3 years.
Strangely enough, this year was probably the worst for overall deer sightings, and the farmers instituted an intensive rotational grazing program and halved the number of cattle, and this year there was more clover and forbs and weedy areas than ever before. Lots more forage than in years past, but still fewer deer
I might be imagining it, but it also seems that the woodland areas are producing more undergrowth in the last 3 years, even with drought conditions. Part of that I believe is somewhat the result of some ice storms that wreaked havoc on the canopy in the last few years, daylighting certain areas. But I also believe the lower deer population has played a role.
I guess I'm rambling, but overall, I'm still not sure that fewer deer isn't such a bad thing, at least in my area
Bake
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By:
Vermonster
Date:11-Dec-13
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Markx, i see probably 2-3 dead deer along the interstate a year now. It hasnt changed their minds on the population at all.
Here in Vermont, the hunting is terrible. I saw 4 deer all bow season. We kill about 12,000 deer a year in all our seasons. Way down from what we used to kill 10-20 years ago. Yet the Vt F&W still say we have a very healthy herd. Everyone here sees it. There just arent that many deer. The Vt F&W has lost alot of money in license sales in the last couple years. We dont have hardly any non resident hunters and alot of people travel out of state because its so bad here. You would think with the huge decline in the herd that they would be making some major changes but they arent. Oh ya and we are also still the 3 deer state.
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By:
LKH
Date:11-Dec-13
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I have land a little west of Lewistown, MT and used to ask people to come and kill does. 2 years of epizootic hemorhagic disease took care of that.
In a normal environment does need to be taken.
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By:
kansas bowman
Date:11-Dec-13
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If deer are the property of the states, why then, when we have a wreck with there deer in are transportations do we have to call are insurance co. shouldn't we call our state and have them pay for our cars an hospital expenses. Just a thought.
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By:
Kevin Dill
Date:11-Dec-13
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kansas bowman...
If it worked like that, the burden of expense would fall on the taxpayers. When everyone's taxes went up to pay for deer damage, the citizens of the state would call for herd reduction so severe you'd be lucky to find a deer track...let alone the deer that made it.
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By:
1boonr
Date:12-Dec-13
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here in Illinois the idiots in charge put a limit on squirrels but have no limit on antlerless deer! There is a limit on every other game animal except varmits and antlerless deer. There is no doubt after talking with the butchers in the area along with a few taxidermists that they are being deceptive about the actual deer kill.
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By:
midwest
Date:12-Dec-13
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"How many know that 80% of a deer's diet is browse?"
Not in Iowa. 78% of the deers annual diet consists of cultivated crops.
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By:
1boonr
Date:12-Dec-13
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the thing missing in this debate is that just because the tags are available doesn't mean a hunter has to buy or fill them! the DNR is responsible for part of the problem but all the bloodthirsty killers are a big part of the problem also.
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By:
Kevin Dill
Date:12-Dec-13
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Illinois drivers killed over 25,000 deer back when the population was considered to be 800,000 statewide. For comparison, Ohio drivers will kill over 20,000 deer in 2013 and our herd is estimated to be somewhere south of 750,000 now. Illinois drivers look to kill about 16,000 deer this year, so a decent estimate is Illinois having 500,000+ deer now. The beneficiaries are the 9,000 drivers and deer who don't collide...but hunters won't have as many deer available to hunt.
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By:
kansas bowman
Date:12-Dec-13
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good point kevin
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By:
MDW
Date:13-Dec-13
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Surprisingly, very few Does brought into our processing shop so far, in SE kansas, with all the tags available. However with the firearms season ending this Sunday, I expect everything to change today. If it has brown hair, it get shot at.
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By:
writer
Date:13-Dec-13
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Thanks for the warning, Marvin...I have brown hair so I'd better stay inside!
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By:
Stick
Date:13-Dec-13
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I've noticed a couple of people chime in here that claim to have experience in heard management. So, if you wouldn't mind, I've had a question for quite a few years that I have gotten a full spectrum of opinions on but nothing conclusive.
Do wild turkeys compete with deer for food resources? It is not uncommon in north central Wisconsin to see a hundred or more turkeys in a day but only 10 years ago or so there were NONE. I know that their diets don't mirror a whitetail's but there is some overlap. I've also noticed that a flock of turkeys will drive deer away from a food source.(like corn, for example)
I guess what I'm getting at is the fact that during the same time period(since about 2006) the whitetail population has been noticeably DECREASING, the turkey population has been noticeably INCREASING. Are the two related or is this simply a matter of management strategy?
Any thoughts here?
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By:
BigOzzie
Date:13-Dec-13
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Stick I would be interested in the answer to your question if you have an opinion.
I have been looking into introducing turkeys on my land, currently none exist, but will not do so if it competes too much with the deer.
oz
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By:
Pat C.
Date:13-Dec-13
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Good question stick!! Imin on that too.
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By:
HighLife
Date:13-Dec-13
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And what about them thieving squirrels could they also be apart of the equation?
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By:
Stick
Date:13-Dec-13
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I'm gonna have to say negatory on the thieving squirrels.;)
Seriously, though, I've sat and watched flocks of turkeys run deer off feeders enough times to be convinced that there is at least some level of competition going on. I don't know what the extent is... that's why I'm asking.
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By:
Ollie
Date:13-Dec-13
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So how are you going to introduce turkeys onto your property? Stocking wild game is handled by state fish and game departments.
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By:
Anonymous
Date:13-Dec-13
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Our Ohio property is overloaded with does and out of balance. We are trying desperately to take enough to keep up and just cant seem to reduce them. I hate to involve the Dept of Wildlife and even make it an issue. There are so many does that it makes the rut seem weak because bucks aren't having to fight enough for them.
Buck sightings down, doe sightings up.
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By:
willliamtell
Date:13-Dec-13
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Can anyone point to scientific studies documenting mortality factors on herd, especially contrasting liberal doe quota areas with either no-hunting restricted areas or very limited take? The problem is everyone's experiences are anecdotal.
I am struck by the concensus on this thread that hunters are sucking hind titty when it comes to game management. How much money are farmers or insurance companies putting into fish and game departments? It looks like there needs to be a revolution of sorts where the main group that cares about the long-term health and vitality of deer gets a LOT more say in how those resourcs are managed.
One option if the State resource agencies continue to be dominated by non-hunting interests who usually want to see a lot less of the resource is to use the private non-profit groups to do their own studies. It's sad when state biologists say there are lots of animals yada yada and we hunters have very little ability to rebut that except our own personal experiences.
If the kill-them-all farmers and insurance companies continue to pull the strings in the State agencies, at least hunters coudl then force them to be honest about what the true objectives driving management practices are.
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By:
Kevin Dill
Date:13-Dec-13
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I'm not sure about other states, but Ohio says that deer belong to the state, which is essentially the people or populace. Ohio also says very clearly that the deer herd is managed for the general good of all the people, and the health of the deer herd. We hunters often don't like it, but here's the straight facts: Every single Ohioan has equal voice in how Ohio's deer should be managed. Some of those voices combine to produce powerful political and lobbying results. Hunters and sportsmen have a strong voice, but not stronger than other large groups. Some hunters think deer should only be managed for hunting. Farmers think farming...and so on and so forth. My theory is that when everyone is complaining at the same rate, that's about as fair as it gets. Nobody will ever be entirely happy with the numbers.
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By:
MDW
Date:13-Dec-13
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Mike, I figure on staying inside the processing room.
Heck of a bunch of geese in the area, but haven't paid attention to where they go to feed.
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By:
hunter47025
Date:15-Dec-13
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One word describes it all = POLITICS
second word = MONEY
Add them together and mix them up and it spells:
CORRUPTION or misuse of power
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By:
WV Mountaineer
Date:15-Dec-13
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Pat C, sent you a pm.
writer, very well said.
God Bless to all
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By:
Dwayne
Date:15-Dec-13
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Kevin, I see your logic in deer kills by vehicles and the deer herd but I wonder how many more vehicles are on the road now compared to the previous years. My guess is there are a lot more now which would equate to a higher probability of collisions.
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By:
Kevin Dill
Date:15-Dec-13
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Dwayne, I follow your thoughts as well and I considered that. It's a hypothesis and would need some supporting data. I decided to check, and here's what Ohio's BMV reports for the past 6 years:
2006: 10,800,000 vehicles registered.
2010: 12,027,351 vehicles registered.
2011: 11,788,425 vehicles registered.
2012: 11,840,362 vehicles registered.
The instant logic would be that a million more vehicles means a million more chances to hit one of our deer, but statistics wouldn't work just like that. As an example, a truck pulling a trailer counts as two registered 'vehicles'. I do think the increasing traffic puts more deer at risk (and drivers, too), which is actually why we'll see a deliberate effort to drop the deer numbers. The deer are managed around the human population and human desires. Competing desires mean someone (or maybe all) will not be satisfied.
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By:
bowriter
Date:15-Dec-13
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JTV-Quite well said.
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By:
PineLander
Date:15-Dec-13
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ILLINOIS... in my little hunting piece of the world they have increased "late season" antlerless hunts, along with CWD tags in areas where there hasn't been a positive in years. Our numbers have dwindled to less than half of what it was just 5 years ago. And when the population was at it's peak, there was no problem with "browse" since it consists of a combination of natural grasses and alfalfa in summer, agriculture in fall, and timber browse in winter/spring. We have a good balance of everything. Timber browse was never a problem when numbers were at their peak, except in small isolated county parks surrounded by urban areas.
We haven't been shooting Does on our hunting property for quite a while now, and we don't gun hunt it either. But it doesn't help much when neighboring properties are filling as many late season Doe tags as they can, happily issued by the DNR. And the sharp-shooting still continues for various reasons in various locales.
Somebody asked about turkeys. No, they don't affect deer populations as far as I can tell. When I lived in SE Iowa there was a robust population of both turkeys AND deer. And it was the same here in Illinois... until the CWD scare came along. Coyotes the same thing, lots of them during the high number years of deer and turkey... didn't phase either one of them.
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By:
Bow Man
Date:07-Dec-16
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Unfortunately, I am in MNU 487. 2016.
Season Location, Page # for more information Season Dates Early Antlerless Firearm Private land in select DMUs, pg. 14 Sept. 17-18 Liberty Hunt Statewide, pg. 13 Sept. 17-18 Independence Hunt Private land statewide and certain public lands by application, pg. 13 Oct. 13-16 Archery Statewide Oct. 1 - Nov. 14 Dec. 1 - Jan. 1 Regular Firearm Statewide Nov. 15-30 Muzzleloading Zone 1 and 2 Zone 3 Dec. 2-11 Dec. 2-18 Late Antlerless Firearm Private land in select DMUs, see pg. 15 Dec. 19 - Jan. 1
Antlerless Deer License Purchase Limits (Per Hunter) An individual may purchase up to a daily limit of 2 antlerless deer licenses statewide, with the following exceptions: • For DMUs 487 and 452, an individual may purchase a total of 5 antlerless deer licenses per day. • For DMUs 419 and 333, an individual may purchase unlimited antlerless deer licenses per day. An individual may purchase up to a season limit of 5 private-land antlerless deer licenses statewide, with the following exceptions: • For DMUs 452 and 487, an individual may purchase a total of 10 antlerless deer licenses per season. • For DMUs 419 and 333, an individual may purchase unlimited antlerless deer licenses per season.
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By:
trkytrack
Date:07-Dec-16
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$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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By:
drycreek
Date:07-Dec-16
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I'm glad this thread was resurrected. It gives me the chance to add to what was one of my very first posts here on Bowsite. In my area of Texas now, unless you are in the MLDP program, you may only take does (in rifle season) from opening day until the Sunday before Thanksgiving. Lots of guys won't (I didn't) because that generally coincides with the rut. I think overall that that is a good thing, but from the first Saturday in October until the aforementioned Sunday, you may kill four deer on your tags, no more than two bucks, one of which must have an unbranched antler. Still lots of people killing does and spikes, especially now that crossbows are legal in bow season.
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By:
MichaelArnette
Date:07-Dec-16
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I think Oklahoma is doing a fair job with management. 40% of the harvest in antlerless which is probably safe...I'm sure the tipping point would be close though and would come fast. As a rule I try to never harvest more does than bucks. If I notice lower numbers in a year you can bet I won't be shooting does the next year or the rest of that year.
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By:
Buffalo1
Date:07-Dec-16
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I will refresh my post from 2013. Things remain the same in Mississippi
MS law allows 3 bucks and 5 does per year. If land is under the DMAP Program (quality mgt. program) if herd size allows more doe permits can be obtained to keep the herd size within mgt. limits.
Biologists say that at least 1/3 of herd population must be killed annually just to keep herd size in check. If overpopulation exist, then more deer should be taken to get herd size in balance with carrying capacity.
Some areas of the state have been shot out and other areas are overpopulated. No real small management units exist like in states like Wy, Co., etc. We have 3 management area for the entire state, so real managemment cannot not really occur as needed.
We no longer have a true primitive weapon season with black powder guns. We have "pseudo primitive" replica guns that shoot real ammunition 35 cal, 45/70, 444 etc. It is a joke. The first season only anterless deer can be taken. In the December 1-14 Primitive season, either sex can be taken. On private land long rifles and shotguns are permitted.
Hence, all laws are really favoring the shooting of more does. Sometimes a good thing and other times a bad thing.
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By:
Jaquomo
Date:08-Dec-16
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What is a "buque doe" from the OP.
Here in CO they are literally trying to kill ALL of the whitetails in much of the state to help the mule deer where they overlap, which is basically everywhere.
Ok, I get that from a biologist's standpoint. But then they still offer doe mule deer tags in those same areas, which doesn't seem to make sense on the surface. There are political reasons for locals/meat hunters. The other factor is the buck-doe ratio. With so much outfitting for $$$ where only bucks are shot, if only buck harvest was allowed the ratio would be even more whacked than it is now.
Biologists are pulled between herd dynamics, political pressure, and financial pressure in every state. They don't have an easy job, especially since every hunter believes he's also a biologist who knows more than "them edjukated fools".
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By:
IdyllwildArcher
Date:08-Dec-16
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I can't believe this thread is 3 years old. Seems like yesterday.
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By:
Kevin Dill
Date:08-Dec-16
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I haven't slept in a Holiday Inn Express recently....
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By:
jstephens61
Date:08-Dec-16
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Well put Lou. I have to wonder how many biology degrees we have on here. We base our opinion on our little slice on the world and maybe a couple buddies. Most of us don't see the bigger picture. I know tag sales are driven in part by money, but there has to be some science behind it. If you kill off your herd, you won't have any reason to sell tags. If you feel something is amiss, educate yourself and get involved. If you just complain on forums, you're preaching to the choir. I can hear people cussing me now.
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By:
Bowfreak
Date:08-Dec-16
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I know of at least one guy who has a biology degree. :) But even without a degree we should know that if the DNR issues too many doe tags it doesn't mean crap if we aren't willing to fill them.
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By:
Fuzzy
Date:08-Dec-16
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I don't own any does
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By:
Bow Man
Date:08-Dec-16
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For clarification from earlier.
Late firearm doe season after they have been bred.
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By:
Bow Man
Date:08-Dec-16
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For clarification from earlier.
Late firearm doe season after they have been bred.
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By:
great white
Date:08-Dec-16
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Here in Ohio they have over stated the deer population to be 700,000. The insurance companies want the herd reduced. I am not alone i thinking that there is fewer deer than recent years. Our trail camera surveys show less activity than previous years. Had to hunt harder than normal to fill the freezer. .
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By:
LBshooter
Date:08-Dec-16
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If the numbers don't go down with hunters taking the does, the DNR will load up with shooters and take them out. Here in northern IL they have already done a good job of thinning the herd. I believe that when the state realizes the decrease in revenue from hunters and tag fees and all the business hunters bring to local economies,they will figure out that they are the only ones loosing money, whereas the farmers and insurance companies are profiting.
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By:
Will
Date:08-Dec-16
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PA herd got wiped out in the 2,000's and coincidentally participation and license sales have dropped by at least 40% in the past 10 years.
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By:
Jaquomo
Date:08-Dec-16
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Aside from the anthromorphic "heart-tugging" factor, there is no difference between shooting a doe that has been bred vs. shooting one that will be bred in a day or two.
In any state with hunting after mid-November, pregnant does are being shot by every sort of hunter. I'd suggest anyone with big concerns about the harvest dynamics in their state do what I do and talk personally with the lead biologists. They will be candid in a one-on-one conversation. You can learn a bit more about the real issues than from buddies down at the tavern.
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By:
Zbone
Date:09-Dec-16
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Forget those Ohio herd GUESStimates, the DOW increased the herd count 50% in ONE day from 500,000 to 750,000 with the stroke of the pen a few years ago... Reasoning for them to increase liberal doe tags at that time... Population been in steady decline for years in which kill stats and deer and auto colision stats confirm, the DOW really doesn't have an ACCURATE way to guesstimate, they'll pad the numbers the way they see fit... How can kill stats and colision stats decline yet population they say stays the same year after year at 750,000... Go figure...
This year's gun season kill stats are back to 1980's levels...
Ohio statewide total annual kill stats since 2010:
2010 - 261,260
2011 - 239,475
2012 - 219,748
2013 - 218,910
2014 - 191,455
2015 - 175,745
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By:
buckhammer
Date:09-Dec-16
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Before we throw any more pity parties for the American farmer who constantly complains about all of the crop damage the deer are doing we first need to ask him or her if they can differentiate between deer crop damage and raccoon crop damage.
I know the difference, but I know most farmers don't.
Second of all before we shed any more tears for the farmer who claims the deer ate all of his profits I would urge you to use the link I provided, EWG.org, and use the crop subsidy database and research the farmers in your area and look at the hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars they have received in (welfare) subsidy payments. Cry me a river somewhere else. Nobody subsidizes me when my business is slow.
And lastly I will take the word of a common sense outdoorsman who has spent a lifetime in the outdoors and knows his land and the animals that inhabit it over some runny nose college educated city kid who has a sheet of paper that states he is a wildlife biologist and works for the state DNR.
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By:
rick allison
Date:09-Dec-16
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I'm in south central Wisconsin...a former deer mecca. About 14 years ago, we underwent a CWD panic whereby a large group of area counties were designated extermination or control zones. The next few years were absolutely carnage.
Up north, the wolf population has exploded with federal judge out east placing the Great Lakes and Yellowstone wolves back on the endangered species list...this after a few years of wolf seasons.
My bow season resulted in 8 total deer sighted...all year. Now, I'm 64 and have been at this since I was a kid.
Last Saturday I drove 160 miles up northeast through the heart of "deer country". I saw 1 road kill.
Guys I know who have the wherewithal to manage private property are doing well. They shoot only enough does to maintain a good sex ration, and practice QDM. I am not afforded that luxury.
Contrary to posts from some of our learned compatriots, starvation or malnutrition has never been an issue in my little corner of the world. For whatever reasons, our DNR has apparently decided to practically eradicate deer...but the tags keep on selling.
I haven't shot a doe in many years, and don't see that changing anytime soon.
I have no degree in forestry, wildlife "management", nor any other natural resorce program...just my 50 years hunting experience.
That said, we as hunters are our own worse enemy...just because we're issued a shoebox full of doe tags doesn't mean they must be filled. It would appear we have fewer hunters, and too many who just like to pull the trigger. Contrary to what some seem to believe, deer do not pop out of the ground each spring with the corn.
Sad state of affairs.
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By:
JamesV
Date:09-Dec-16
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Mississippi allows the use of dogs to run deer and also you can ride and shoot off a horse. With little to no law enforcement it is a Wild west shoot out every hunting season. The local hunters kill every deer they see then blame the lack of deer on the out of state hunters.
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By:
jstephens61
Date:09-Dec-16
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buckhamme, Wow, you're just full of insults. My family has farmed and raised livestock for generations. Most of us know the difference between a coon track and deer track. If you're telling me that a coon will do more damage than a deer, I just don't have a response for that. Crop subsidies are offered by the government, kinda like business tax deductions. You take those right? Most sportsmans knowledge is based on the areas they hunt, not the entire state. Most of the "runny nose" biologists have a balancing act to do and end up making no one happy. I know that's the way my job is at Illinois DNR. I've sat in public hearings on issues and listened to people repeat catch phrases they've heard and really have no clue what they're talking about. Hope you have a wonderful holiday season and remember a farmer when you're sitting down to dinner.
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By:
Trial153
Date:09-Dec-16
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NY Does. Take a looks the rule that converts all unfilled Regular season tags to antlerless tag in the late muzzleloader and archery season, regardless of if the DMU has any doe quota.
Next point is that hunters are their own worst enemy. The " I got a tag I will fill " it crowd are shortsighted ignorant louts.
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By:
Jaquomo
Date:09-Dec-16
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" runny nose college educated city kid who has a sheet of paper that states he is a wildlife biologist". That's funny! Never met any of them but I'm sure there is one somewhere in a DNR, working in a low-level clerical job. We used to hear crap like that all the time from high school dropouts we called "Barstool Biologists". The guys who already knew everything by 10th grade and didn't need no more book-learnin' because they could learn all they needed to know sitting in on a stump in the woods and talking with their other dropout buddies down at the tavern.
Most big league wildlife and vertebrate biologists who are in serious decision-making positions (They only make recommendations, because the politics takes it up the ladder from there and the decisions are out of their hands) are hunters themselves, have spent their lives in the outdoors because they love nature, and pursued a difficult academic field knowing they'd never make much money at it because of that love and natural curiosity. They've have spent many years (and a lot of money) studying the dynamics of management principles and practicing the profession, sharing experiences and ideas with other peers around the country after they got that silly little piece of paper.
But politics and budget constraints are their worst enemy. Example: Here in Colorado the biologists for each Game Management Unit work with the field wardens and technicians to figure out how many moose licenses to recommend for each GMU. But because of budget cuts, they don't have any money to do actual moose counts so they have to guess at how many there are. They admit that. The hunters want more moose to hunt - because we funded the reintroduction back in the early '70s. The USFS wants fewer moose because of perceived overbrowsing of willows in some isolated areas. The Wildlife Commission, which sets seasons and approves tag numbers, wants to maximize revenue and make hunters happy, but also doesn't want to get cross-threaded with the Feds since the original deal for moose population limits has been multiplied way beyond the original agreement with the USFS. The CO Commission doesn't want any part of being sued by the Feds. The highly vocal wildlife watchers don't want any hunting where anyone can see it, which is where a lot of our moose live, so they work hard to close off areas to moose hunting. The Commission includes nonhunters, wildlife watchers, urban recreators, and at least one closet anti-hunter (I believe).
If you look beyond the final product to see how the sausage is made, there are a lot of ugly piece-parts involved in the package that eventually gets to hunters. Farmers and crop damage concerns, insurance companies, nonhunting wildlife lovers, city people who love deer until they eat their gardens, then want something done about it - but not KILLING, hunters who want more meat, hunters who want more trophies, hunters who just want more deer, rural-urban interface resource managers who want fewer deer in THEIR area, and the guys running the sausage grinder are the bean counters because money carries the most weight when you get to the bottom of it.
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By:
canepole
Date:10-Dec-16
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Buckhammer, I was going respond with a lengthy response concerning those "welfare recipients" farmers who don't know as much as you concerning crop depredation on their own land. Since I doubt I know as much as those hard working men and women, I feel certain I'm not in the same league as you to engage in an intelligent dialog. Oh yeah, those "runny nose college educated city kids" that sportsmen have counted on for decades to help us justify hunting. They don't squat either. Hmm? BTW, one thing that I think that's easy to figure out is why your business would be slow! Best of luck to all.
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By:
MK111
Date:11-Dec-16
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Yearly kills are down in Ohio the past few years. But I remember the old days when there wasn't any deer in most of Ohio.
In 1961 a buck jumped across the road in front of our school bus and it was put in the paper. That was in NW Ohio in Putnam County near Ottawa. 1st deer I ever seen and I was 17 yrs old.
In 1972 I shot my 1st deer and the Willard local paper asked to put a picture and article in the paper. I believe in 1972 only about 8,000 deer was killed in the entire state of Ohio.
So yes deer kills are down but a whole lot better than the old days of no deer.
I have no wish to go back to the old days of all most no deer. In some areas the deer numbers have been reduced way too far.
But since deer are free ranging the pressure is on the farmer who owns the land the deer feed on.
I don't claim to know the answer on deer numbers in the future. But I feel the numbers will continue to fall due to pressure from farmers and Insurance Company to reduce the herd numbers.
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By:
Kevin Dill
Date:11-Dec-16
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I found some interesting stats for Ohio.
.
Public land comprises only 4% of the land mass here. Public land deer kill accounted for 9% of the statewide total for the 2014-2015 year....and that's pretty typical. Public land success rate was 13% compared to 28% for private land hunters.
Nonresidents make up a disproportionate share of total hunters using public land in Ohio. Resident use of public land (for deer hunting) has steadily decreased over the past 15 years.
In 1977 bowhunters accounted for 8% of the deer kill. By 2014 it was up to 46% and out-pacing the gun season kill.
In 2014-2015....76% of successful hunters killed just one deer.
In 2004 over 10,000 Ohio deer were killed under the use of Deer Damage Control Permits. In 2014 that number was about 4,000 statewide.
If my memory on statistics is good, about 20,000 Ohio deer get killed by cars every year.
Landowners accounted for 27% of the total deer harvest for 2014-2015. Landowners here are not required to obtain a general hunting license or deer permits when hunting their own land.
We are THE crossbow state with 47,500 kills vs 34,100 for less popular vertical bows.
Deer permit sales have declined 21% since their high in 2009-2010. If the trend continues, 2016-2017 will be the 7th consecutive year for permit sales to go down here.
True antlerless permit sales decreased by 44% in one year when the state placed restrictions on their use.
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By:
Jaquomo
Date:11-Dec-16
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Kevin, good stuff. From this it appears that landowners are the de facto managers of the deer dynamics in Ohio, while the DNR basically issues the licenses to non-landowners, collects the revenue, and recommends season dates.
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By:
Kevin Dill
Date:11-Dec-16
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That is correct Lou. Ohio has never made it a secret that farming and agribusiness are priority 1 when making deer management decisions here. That means landowners basically swing the hammer. That's the way it is and that's always been the case, even though there was a time when our deer population presented almost no problems to agriculture. When you consider the political and financial power of agriculture...and then add in the insurance lobby (Ohio is very friendly to the insurance industry)...plus other influences...deer hunters here are probably fortunate to have the opportunities we do have. But I get it completely: deer hunters want superb deer hunting and are always going to be dissatisfied with less. Drivers don't want to dodge deer every morning. Farmers don't want crop losses. Insurers dislike deer damage claims....while conversely, auto repair shops love high deer numbers and the wrecks they produce. Even my dogs love high deer numbers, as they can walk around the back yard eating fresh deer shit from the night before.
Everyone has their thing.
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By:
Zbone
Date:11-Dec-16
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"it appears that landowners are the de facto managers of the deer dynamics in Ohio, while the DNR basically issues the licenses to non-landowners, collects the revenue, and recommends season dates."
Yeah Jaquomo, I agree, and as it should be, landowners managing their own properties, it's their land, BUT, and a big but, the DOW shouldn't allow crop kill permits unless the landowner proves he killed so many deer during legal hunting seasons and or allowed so many hunters acccess... The farmer owns the land but the state owns the deer, and if the farmer can't prove he's working with hunters, no kill permits... Maybe a program like something they have out west where public access of private properties, I think the call it "Walk in Properties" or something like that in South Dalota. Colorado has something similar, and am sure other states do too... As I said in the other thread, these kill permits they hand out (and they hand them out to farmers like candy too) devastate local deer populations... Blowing away deer with a high powered rifle at night with a light and leaving them for the buzzards is just immoral to me... Give the hunters a chance to do it right or cut off their kill permits... Also, someone was saying, deer take a lot of blame done to corn fields when in fact it's groundhogs and coon who are the main culprits... They'll climb a corn stalk until their weight knocks it over and then fiest, but since there are deer tracks around, deer take the blame and most farmers don't know the difference, as with some of these "runny nose college educated city kid who has a sheet of paper that states he is a wildlife biologist"...8^) Hell, crows will pick a newly sprouted corn plant (they're smart and know or learn there is a kernel underneath and the sprout gives them a target) even before it gets a chance to grow, don't always blame the deer...
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By:
Zbone
Date:11-Dec-16
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"when a state sets a target deer density and has absolutely no way to measure it and is sometimes several years too late by the time they realize they met their reduction goals a long time ago. And for whatever reason they fail to make drastic alterations to their tag allotments - probably due to the optics of making it look like they are not on top of things. So deer densities can sometimes take a decade or longer to rebound to those targeted levels."
Amen...
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By:
Jaquomo
Date:11-Dec-16
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Good points, Pat.
Zbone, here in CO in many areas the ranchers complain about too many elk on "their" winter range and demand/receive game damage payments. Those same ranchers charge the public $1500-$2000 to help them out by shooting a cow elk. Sure, they own the habitat and are "feeding" those elk in winter, but in many cases they overgraze our public land elk habitat at way less than market value.
Then they lease hunting to $$$$$$ outfitters who generally shoot only bulls, maybe allowing a few friends and family to hunt a cow, which exacerbates the bull-cow ratio problem and the overpopulation they are complaining about.
Once again, the CPW is caught in the middle, trying all sorts of solutions, but they can't change the fact that the average hunter is 55 years old and unable/unwilling to hunt public land elk the way they did in their 30s. They can sell all the extra cow tags they want, and they do, but that doesn't change the other dynamics in play.
Something we should all be thinking about, and DNRs across the country are well aware of this, is how game populations will be managed in 10 years when the average hunter is 64 if current trends continue?
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By:
GF
Date:11-Dec-16
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"Most big league wildlife and vertebrate biologists who are in serious decision-making positions (They only make recommendations, because the politics takes it up the ladder from there and the decisions are out of their hands) are hunters themselves, have spent their lives in the outdoors because they love nature, and pursued a difficult academic field knowing they'd never make much money at it because of that love and natural curiosity. They've have spent many years (and a lot of money) studying the dynamics of management principles and practicing the profession, sharing experiences and ideas with other peers around the country after they got that silly little piece of paper."
Just thought that point bears repeating...
And I'm with ZBone - if you won't allow anyone outside of your immediate family onto your property to thin out the herd, then don't ask the state for extra tags so you can do it all yourself.... especially if those carcasses are getting left to rot...
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By:
MK111
Date:11-Dec-16
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I have to disagree with GF and ZBone on letting strangers hunting on farms. A typical farmer doesn't have the time or knowledge to do background checks on strangers to hunt their farms. Just one mistake and there are big problems that cost time and money to repair.
As far as handing out kill permits like they are candy I don't see. When kill permits gp from 14,000 to 4,000 it seems like some one is looking after the program.
Letting kill permits to rot is wrong and should be put to good use or not issued. 25 years ago a friend and I did kill permits for several years for a large farmer and every ounce of meat was saved.
I have a cattle pasture operation and the deer damage to my electric fences is a all time repair during the rut. I asked for couple doe kill permits and was refused. This was before I put in food plots.
I have 5 hunters living on the farm but I'm the only full time hunter. And to answer the question, no outside family hunts my farm. I don't need the problems.
To make matters worse in a way my adjoining neighbor's farm is a 110 ac horse hay operation. Plus we have a lot of gullies and waste brush areas. I put in food plots 4-5 yrs ago to draw deer to my property.
In a way I sorta have a deer hunters heaven with lots of deer.
But strangers hunting my property is one big problem I don't need or want.
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By:
Kevin Dill
Date:11-Dec-16
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It's one thing to make a rule requiring a landowner to allow hunting and hunters (beyond family and self) before damage control permits can be issued. It's another thing to make it happen in terms of implementing the program, documenting it all and gaining the acceptance and compliance of landowners/farmers. It isn't EVER going to happen in a state like Ohio with so much farmland and all the resistance...even outrage...it would generate from farmers, their organizations and such. Remember...in Ohio you're talking about 4,000 deer taken by DDC permits. That's a lot of venison but it pales in comparison to 20,000 killed and wasted by automobiles. If the state or a hunter-lobbying effort tried to pass such a requirement it would end up pitting hunters directly against farmers who would (by a definite majority) oppose any rule requiring them to open up their property to strangers and involve state oversight. It was landowners who pushed long and hard for the state to require written permission from any hunter wishing to hunt their land. No permit....you hunt...you're busted. A state full of farmers isn't having anything to do with being coerced into letting hunters in...DDC permits or not.
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Also, the state looks at DDC permits in terms of locational need. Sometimes it's considered urgent. A guy who's orchard is getting hammered....a tree nursery getting severe damage....a produce farmer losing his vegetable crop...they aren't in a position to ride it out and hope hunters can do something during the season. They need an immediate response and sometimes it needs to be lethal. Another thing the vast majority of guys don't know is that the state doesn't give out permits on simple request. Extensive documentation is required and it often means a visit by an ODNR wildlife officer to the property. He must see and document the deer damage. It's not up to the landowner to simply SAY it is deer. If the officer determines it's not deer related....no permits. If given, permits are often limited in duration and scope. The state has gone to permits which specifically address the needs of the landowner, the type damage, and the time of year the permits can be used. Often the permits are NOT valid during open deer seasons in order to discourage cheating.
I'm in the camp of guys who thinks it's a travesty to kill a deer and waste the meat. DDC permits could require the permit holder to notify ODNR or a related agency which helps find people willing to accept the carcass for meat. It's the least we could do. ODNR clearly and strongly suggests permit holders utilize the deer meat from DDC kills. The state also requires the recovery of all antler material from bucks and it must be turned over to the local ODNR officer. Violate that one and they're going to get fined plus no more permits. One other thing: it is a clear violation of the permit regs to kill a deer and leave it lay. That carcass must be either buried or moved to a location where it is not visible or offensive as it decomposes. If anyone sees that not happening, the ODNR needs notified.
Maybe if hunters lobbied hard enough we could get the state to drop the speed limit by 20% during the rut. Would motorists agree with that for us? I'm sure it would save 4,000 deer lives.
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By:
buckhammer
Date:11-Dec-16
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Zbone.....excellent points in your post about farmers not knowing the difference between deer crop damage and coon crop damage.
I have found that there are three main types of corn crop damage from animals here in the upper Midwest. The first occurs at the tasseling stage when the deer will eat the tender stalk down to the point where the stalk is forming the ear. The stalk will remain standing and still form an ear but it will typically be stunted.
The second type of damage and the one that is the most visible occurs from coons knocking down the stalk to eat the ear. You will see this mostly on the headlands and along a field edge that abuts a woodlot. This is what gets the most complaints from farmers as you will hear them complain at harvest time about all of the corn that was knocked down. To them it had to be the deer. Will deer knock some corn down? Sure they knock some down but it is the coons that are doing the most damage and will do it in large areas. I have seen fields where there are multiple areas 50 to 60 feet square where there is hardly a stalk left standing. This damage occurs after the ear has formed and the kernel is still soft.
The third type of damage that I see and this is strictly done by the deer, is after the ear has matured and the kernel has hardened. The deer will eat the kernels right off the cob while it is attached to the stalk. This mostly occurs just prior to harvest time and is the least visible to most folks.
From my experience in the outdoors I have rarely if ever seen a deer knock a corn stalk down to eat the corn. They have no need to when all they have to do is walk a row and turn there head left or right and there is an ear right in their face.
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By:
buckhammer
Date:11-Dec-16
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A few short year ago I got word from a close friend that a neighboring farmer had received a large allotment of crop damage permits from the local DNR field office and was not following the rules laid out for there usage. ( not using the correct firearms, letting people use the permits that were not designated to and not properly reporting the number of deer killed.) So I started to do a little digging into the matter and this is what happened......
About a week later,after I got wind that they were not following the rules, my son and I were heading home from a night of fishing and was approaching the road we live on when I noticed 2 sets of lights out in an alfalfa about 200 hundred yards off the road. As we drove down the road and got closer the lights went out. Thinking something was amiss I went down to the next intersection and turned around and came back by again. Once again the lights went out. I told my son I bet they have shot a deer. He looked at me and said " well if they haven't done anything wrong why are they turning their lights off. It's like they are trying to hide something."
So the next morning I went for a walk and found where they had accessed this field. Standing on my property and the neighboring property that I have leased I could clearly see where they drove the entire perimeter of a standing alfalfa field with a pick up truck (thigh high mind you) to pick up the deer they had shot. They did more damage with that truck than any number of deer could have done in a weeks worth of eating.
Thinking that someone other than those designated had shot a deer the prior night I called the report all poaching hotline to express my concerns. I was told that a conservation officer would be in touch with me shortly. Well shortly must be more than a week because after that amount of time I still had not heard from anyone. So off I went to the local state police post. I spoke with a Sgt. at the front desk and told him what had happened and that I had not been contacted by the DNR after more than a week. He immediately put me in contact with a LT. from the regional office. And this is where it gets good........well not really
I told the LT. over the phone what I had witnessed and my concerns that they were not following the rules laid out in the permits. He told me that seeing as how more than a week had passed that any evidence of wrong doing was probably gone, that he didn't have a conservation officer working my county and that one would have to be sent from a neighboring county. He suggested that I contact the farmer myself, to express my concerns that they may be taking too many deer and to see if we could come to a "neighborhood agreement" The whole time I am thinking you have got to be kidding me. As a law enforcement official he showed no concern that there may be illegal activity taking place with these permits. He spoke as if the mindset within the DNR was that these permits were a free rein to do as you please. He left it up to me to do the dirty work of confronting the farmer. Which I did.
I left the post and headed straight to the farm pissed off to no extent. Needless to say the conversation did not go well but I got my point across, told them they were being watched and that I would be videotaping and monitoring their activity and would take any new evidence to the local prosecutor. Their activity greatly diminished after that.
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By:
TRADSTYK
Date:11-Dec-16
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As a farm owner and bowhunter I firmly believe ohio is still taking too many does . And many are abusing the devestation permits. I feel for a while we should go back to one deer.
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By:
Zbone
Date:12-Dec-16
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Yeah, the abuse of those Ohio kill permits is definitely an issue, hunters need to outcry, but that ain't gonna happen... I do all my venting on this site...8^) Where are you guys getting those DDC stats at, got a linky? ....Thanks
IMO deer do most corn damage when the stock is in the early growing stage, about a foot high when its has a high sugar content and deer will bite the whole stock off near the ground and chomp it down from the bottom up, kinda like Buggs Bunny eating a carrot...8^)
TRADSTYK - I remember when it was one deer, buck only all seasons long... Then along came very limited doe tags drawn for by lottery by county townships. That was back when the DOW actually managed deer...
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By:
Kevin Dill
Date:12-Dec-16
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Gary....
. Of note: On page 2 of this link you'll notice Ohio deer permits...of all types...are down across the board. The total number of deer permits issued has been in decline since the historic highs (deer population and permit sales) in 2008 thru 2010. Ohio has no limit on permit sales, so fewer hunters are buying fewer permits. And again, only about 25% of successful hunters here manage to kill more than one deer per season.
Deer damage information on page 9....
https://wildlife.ohiodnr.gov/Portals/wildlife/pdfs/publications/hunting/Pub%205304_DeerSummary_FINAL.pdf
What the Ohio Revised Code says about DDC permits: http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/1501:31-15-08v1
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By:
Zbone
Date:12-Dec-16
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Cool, thanks much Kevin...
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By:
JayG@work
Date:13-Dec-16
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I would have to say that NY is intentionally trying to wipe out the deer herd. Here in the Northern Zone, we have a 7 week rifle season that runs during the rut. In some areas we also have a week of ML early and a week of late ML, with a 7 day archery season. The DEC gives out DMPs, Deer Management Permits for Does and in some areas DMAPs, Deer Management Assistance Program tags. The farmers get a ton of nuisance/crop damage tags....... I know of an adjoining property owner who gets crop damage permits and doesn't even have any crops. The guy owns woods and a lumber mill.. WTF are the deer damaging? Yet he still gets CDPs.. We also have a closed season on Coyote in the Spring, you know, when they are eating the fawns and the turkey poults as well as no way to keep the bear population in check because we have no Spring bear season. (But at least they are importing them from NJ, and bringing in the nuisance bears from Old Forge, the tourist area in the Adirondacks.)
We can bait bears, but have to stop before the hunting season starts, and also before the hunting season starts, they have a dog running season in which you can't kill the bear once it have been treed, only look at it or something stupid like that, so that if you HAD a bear patterned, by the time the dog training season is over, that pattern is gone, the bears are gone and the only time you will see one during the season is just a chance encounter.... Then the season ends and the bears come back to hibernate and have cubs, so that when they come out of hibernation, they are hungry and come out to eat all the fawns and poults.. Just frickin great..
And then there is the hunting culture where everybody shoots everything. Then when they run out of tags, they just have their kids or wife sign their tags over to them and they just keep on killing..... And if you get caught poaching, it's all good if you have a local last name. Nothing to see here, just move along, you're only trying to feed your family.... Don't get a job, just go hunt,,, and if there is a little bit of posted property, go trespass and hunt there because that poor slob that owns the land is probably working to pay the stupidly high taxes on the property, so the chances of getting caught are slim,, and besides, if you have the right last name, it's all good anyhow, we'll let you off with a warning. I drive in to work 35 miles each way through some of the biggest agriculture area in the state. I drive these roads during the time when the deer should be moving, and I have not seen ONE deer in a field since the first week of October. I hunt my 114 acres and on Ft Drum and hunted about 20 or so times here and have only seen about 8 deer all season long.
Thankfully I am in on a lease out in Ohio where there are deer...... I can't believe that I actually retired here.. If I would have known how terrible the hunting is,, and how high the taxes were going to get, and how the Communist Governor was going to outlaw guns, I never would have even considered moving here.... I must have been crazy.. Geez.
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By:
WV Mountaineer
Date:13-Dec-16
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Deer do far more damage to timber resources than any crop. That's what they are damaging on your neighbor. Just goes to show what I said first post way back. Everybody has got their idea of what the problem is but, it is one perspective until all variables are allotted for. But, what the heck do I know? God Bless men
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By:
Scooby-doo
Date:14-Dec-16
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I have to agree with Pat, NY does a decent job with managing the doe herd. What I have a problem with is the guys that complain about not seeing any deer or very few but then when a big doe appears they kill it. That is not the states fault, just because you are issued x number of tags you don't have to fill them. I believe with last years mild winter in many parts of NY the herd did very well. I hunt a bow only area and we have more then enough does actually so many we have a trickle effect rut and there has not been good chasing or good rut activity in quite a few years. NY needs to manage the coyote pop. and that will help with fawn recruitment everywhere in the state. I guess my point is if you want to see more deer, stop shooting everything you see and kill as many coyotes as you can. Scooby-Doo
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By:
buc i 313
Date:14-Dec-16
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It is by choice a hunter shoots a Doe.
If numbers are declining in your area use common sense.
Allow the Doe's to walk.
I see no difference in the seasoned hunter who shoots a spike or small basket rack buck then complains he doesn't see any big bucks.
Deer herds will rise and decline in any given area due to harvest, decline of habitat, disease. AND yes sometime's regulations, i.e. "Kill a Doe / Earn a Buck"
When the (a) state offered 2-6 Doe Permits to hunters for harvesting how many used restraint ?
Sometimes the State DNR'S, aren't the problem.
In the old funny paper / cartoon section. Beetle Bailey, use to say, "I have met the enemy, and it us"
Just my .02
