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Are Cams Taking Away Woodsmanship Skills
Game Cameras
Messages posted to thread:
EF Hutton 27-Apr-17
Animal 27-Apr-17
Woods Walker 27-Apr-17
t-roy 27-Apr-17
KJC 27-Apr-17
Tracker 27-Apr-17
Burly 27-Apr-17
Charlie Rehor 27-Apr-17
cnelk 27-Apr-17
12yards 27-Apr-17
LKH 27-Apr-17
LINK 27-Apr-17
APauls 27-Apr-17
EF Hutton 27-Apr-17
EF Hutton 27-Apr-17
cnelk 27-Apr-17
Paul@thefort 27-Apr-17
EF Hutton 27-Apr-17
APauls 27-Apr-17
Trial153 27-Apr-17
Buskill 27-Apr-17
JacobNisley 27-Apr-17
stealthycat 27-Apr-17
EF Hutton 27-Apr-17
wyobullshooter 27-Apr-17
Bake 27-Apr-17
cnelk 27-Apr-17
Genesis 27-Apr-17
Jaquomo 27-Apr-17
Native Okie 27-Apr-17
ohiohunter 27-Apr-17
Ambush 27-Apr-17
buzz mc 27-Apr-17
EF Hutton 27-Apr-17
Jaquomo 27-Apr-17
Trial153 27-Apr-17
Jaquomo 27-Apr-17
Hawkarcher 27-Apr-17
APauls 27-Apr-17
Jethro 27-Apr-17
EF Hutton 27-Apr-17
Bake 27-Apr-17
DL 27-Apr-17
keith 27-Apr-17
cnelk 27-Apr-17
Genesis 27-Apr-17
EmbryOklahoma 27-Apr-17
MNRazorhead 27-Apr-17
EF Hutton 27-Apr-17
Cazador 27-Apr-17
EF Hutton 27-Apr-17
APauls 27-Apr-17
Glunt@work 27-Apr-17
EmbryO-klahoma 27-Apr-17
cnelk 27-Apr-17
Sage Buffalo 27-Apr-17
APauls 27-Apr-17
Cazador 27-Apr-17
EmbryO-klahoma 27-Apr-17
EF Hutton 27-Apr-17
Missouribreaks 27-Apr-17
EmbryOklahoma 27-Apr-17
Rock 27-Apr-17
Bake 27-Apr-17
buc i 313 27-Apr-17
ohiohunter 27-Apr-17
APauls 27-Apr-17
Missouribreaks 27-Apr-17
Native Okie 27-Apr-17
buzz mc 27-Apr-17
Jethro 27-Apr-17
elk yinzer 27-Apr-17
Brotsky 27-Apr-17
t-roy 27-Apr-17
Franzen 27-Apr-17
Franzen 27-Apr-17
Bou'bound 27-Apr-17
drycreek 27-Apr-17
ohiohunter 27-Apr-17
Scooby-doo 27-Apr-17
The END 27-Apr-17
casekiska 27-Apr-17
TD 27-Apr-17
EF Hutton 27-Apr-17
Jaquomo 27-Apr-17
Woods Walker 27-Apr-17
EF Hutton 27-Apr-17
cnelk 27-Apr-17
Woods Walker 27-Apr-17
Jaquomo 27-Apr-17
TD 27-Apr-17
joehunter8301 28-Apr-17
wifishkiller 28-Apr-17
EF Hutton 28-Apr-17
meatus 28-Apr-17
1boonr 28-Apr-17
Jaquomo 28-Apr-17
EF Hutton 28-Apr-17
cnelk 28-Apr-17
TD 28-Apr-17
yooper89 28-Apr-17
Jaquomo 28-Apr-17
Jaquomo 28-Apr-17
TD 29-Apr-17
Genesis 29-Apr-17
EF Hutton 29-Apr-17
Franzen 29-Apr-17
wyobullshooter 29-Apr-17
EF Hutton 29-Apr-17
cnelk 29-Apr-17
LBshooter 29-Apr-17
Forest bows 29-Apr-17
Jaquomo 29-Apr-17
ahunter55 29-Apr-17
Forest bows 29-Apr-17
1boonr 29-Apr-17
Genesis 29-Apr-17
Cazador 29-Apr-17
The END 29-Apr-17
MichaelArnette 29-Apr-17
Scooby-doo 29-Apr-17
Pigsticker 29-Apr-17
TD 30-Apr-17
Forest bows 30-Apr-17
Jeff Durnell 30-Apr-17
Pigsticker 30-Apr-17
Bowriter 30-Apr-17
EF Hutton 30-Apr-17
t-roy 30-Apr-17
ahunter55 30-Apr-17
LBshooter 30-Apr-17
Missouribreaks 30-Apr-17
Jaquomo 30-Apr-17
Cazador 30-Apr-17
Kevin Dill 30-Apr-17
Forest bows 30-Apr-17
Pigsticker 30-Apr-17
LBshooter 30-Apr-17
LBshooter 30-Apr-17
Ambush 30-Apr-17
TD 30-Apr-17
Jaquomo 01-May-17
IdyllwildArcher 01-May-17
ohiohunter 01-May-17
Kevin Dill 01-May-17
Genesis 01-May-17
EmbryO-klahoma 01-May-17
Forest bows 01-May-17
APauls 01-May-17
The END 01-May-17
EF Hutton 01-May-17
Bake 01-May-17
XMan 01-May-17
MNRazorhead 01-May-17
buzz mc 01-May-17
JLeMieux 02-May-17
EF Hutton 03-May-17
EF Hutton 03-May-17
EF Hutton 03-May-17
JLeMieux 03-May-17
EF Hutton 03-May-17
BigOzzie 03-May-17
ohiohunter 03-May-17


Date:27-Apr-17

For the younger guys ? seeing some of the later responses on the mature buck thread, I wanted to ask this. Growing up in the 80's & 90's, we learned how to interpret rub lines and rubs, the amount of pearl shavings, the outer tine tick & scrapings, and figured about what size the rack is. Excitement came when we finally met. How far the big track sank in different softness of muds, etc. Are today's cam runners missing out ? Just was wondering .

By: Animal
Date:27-Apr-17

In my opinion, and to answer your question - YES!

Date:27-Apr-17

If you have to rely on a battery and a microchip for your success, then you are lacking in skills and you WILL be disappointed.

Please note that I said "RELY". Cameras and the like are TOOLS, not skills. It's akin to only being able to do basic math with a calculator, and if the calculator fails then you are stuck. If this is your situation then you DON'T know basic math. Same with woodsmanship.

By: t-roy
Date:27-Apr-17

Crap! I just burnt my microwave popcorn. Couldn't figure out how to set the timer!

By: KJC
Date:27-Apr-17

Bowhunting and it's associated skills are a very small part of woodsmanship.

Date:27-Apr-17

Cams are just another tool I think the hunters that want to score know they need other skills

By: Burly
Date:27-Apr-17

Yes

Date:27-Apr-17

No, I think it's the 1000 yard rifle shots.

By: cnelk
Date:27-Apr-17

Using trail cams requires a certain amount of 'woodsmanship' to begin with. Placement of cams is critical to start, and that means you already have a pretty good idea where they will go, which means the hunter has done SOME research.

To me, running trail cams is a lot like trapping. You just cant place them nilly willy. There has to be some method and reasoning.

I dont think trail cameras are 'taking away' skills, but refining the skills you have and building on them. Just like trapping.

Date:27-Apr-17

Cameras only confirmed what I already knew. There are no big bucks where I hunt in MN. I hardly use cameras.

By: LKH
Date:27-Apr-17

Here in MT they make the decision easy. You can't use them during season.

I've just purchased a couple and right now I'm going to set one for weasels. At least I think that's what's stealing the pocket gophers out of my live trap. Trap door is closed, all the gophers gone and nothing in the box.

By: LINK
Date:27-Apr-17

+1 cnelk. Cams probably actually get more people in the woods to scout. I would argue on the whole they encourage woodsmanship.

By: APauls
Date:27-Apr-17

Really???? This again???? And the question is always about the "younger guys." Pretty sure trail cam usage is fairly even across the board. If you read the "Mature Buck" thread pretty sure the only guy that mentioned NOT using a trail camera for fear of scent dispersion was a "young guy."

I don't think there is a hardcore hunter out there that hasn't learned / isn't always learning woodsmanship. No one gets successfull by walking into a bush and hanging a pile of cams then walking back and whacking a booner with a bow. Then doing this on repeat. Whitetails are too wary for that. If you know of "young guys" that have repeated success, it's because they are learning about whitetails the same way you did, but with the added advantage of trail cameras, google earth, and some of the other wonderful goodies technology brings that just helps to steepen the curve. I will give you that though, with the advancement of technology, a person can learn quicker today I think that in years gone by if they use all what is available. Of course they are available to young and old.

But for those that use them, I think they only help to answer some of the questions you previously could not answer, thereby giving a person more knowledge of the quarry we pursue, with that knowledge I would venture that it would increase a person's woodsmanship skills, as he is able to piece together more of what he sees with data he is getting from cameras.

Date:27-Apr-17

Cnelk but if you start out with cams, then you have no previous skills to fall back on. You didn't come up thru the old school ranks, you raced to the cam thus nothing to fall back on.

Date:27-Apr-17

Apauls its a statistical thing. Sure some old guys are getting too relying on cams, but this thread seeks to sample one thing- the direction of new hunter trend. We must control the other variables to have a somewhat accurate conclusion, thus 1000 yd rifles do not factor in.

By: cnelk
Date:27-Apr-17

@ EF

I seriously doubt that anyone placing trail cameras, has 'no previous skills'.

And so what if they didnt! Like mentioned above, its getting guys out in the woods.

Now if you want to chat about lack of woodsmanship as a 'whole', let's include GPS's and hunting over bait

Date:27-Apr-17

Paul@thefort's embedded Photo

Not really. Let see, I have been hunting for 65 years and has learned a lot about critters and have done fairly well. Last year I purchased two trail cameras for my Nebraska wt hunt and also used them in Arizona on that WT hunt also. Learned a lot about the local buck and does. Tools? Yep, just a few more in my hunting tool chest.

Date:27-Apr-17

I agree with the bait. However, skilled hunters with GPS, who previously did it by compass and unique landmark remembrance, can fall back on that should the GPS fail. If you started out with a GPS, then you don't have the previous background to back you up. THIS is the whole premise of this thread.

USMC Scout Sniper School- every candidate MUST master the old ways of reading wind and estimating distance and must pass tests. THEN, he/she is allowed to use the newer ballistic calculators and range finders.

By: APauls
Date:27-Apr-17

That's the thing. I don't think (nor have I ever heard of) ANY successful hunter relying on trail cams. Sure, most use them, but rely? People use them to lesser and greater degrees, but a many have said you need to know what you're doing before you hang them in a good location. I remember hauling sand onto trails, dumping it, then waiting 48 hours and checking how many deer tracks crossed the trail, and deciphering how many bucks/does in a forested area. Heck of a lot more work, I prefer the cam. I was only 14 years old. If you're determined, you'll find a way to get the info you need.

Or maybe we should just concede that anyone born prior to 1970 is by default a better deer hunter due to increased woodsmanship skills todays youth simply can not achieve.

Date:27-Apr-17

I blame crossbows more then trail cams.

Date:27-Apr-17

I'm rarely use cams . I kinda forget about them . I think for the inexperienced they are nice because they tell you what's realistic in your area. Guys watch these tv shows and think a 140 is gonna walk by their stand just like it did on Buckmasters or whatever.

Date:27-Apr-17

Because carrying a crossbow will get you so many more encounters with deer.

Date:27-Apr-17

absolutely and I'll continue to use mine because it make me more successful - same reason I use a compound bow and replacement blade broadheads and tree stands etc

If I wanted to truly go back to being a hard core sportsman, I'd use wool, hunt from the ground, spot/stalk type hunting, no optics, shoot a recurve or longbow, sharpen my own broadheads etc.

Date:27-Apr-17

" Or maybe we should just concede that anyone born prior to 1970 is by default a better deer hunter due to increased woodsmanship skills todays youth simply can not achieve. " Apauls

With many exceptions, yes. It just works out that way. As a whole, today's society is laxed. There are millions of exceptions around the US, a lot of newer kids mentor from grandpa, etc, but as a whole generally speaking, yes.

Date:27-Apr-17

"Get off my lawn!!!!"

By: Bake
Date:27-Apr-17

I'll throw some gas on this one . . . . :)

I find as a general rule in my area that those born before 1970 are poorer hunters than the young crop. They're the ones steeped in tradition that still believe "once a spike always a spike", and a host of other nonsensical crap about deer.

It was a very respected older hunter who wrote "How to Bag the Biggest Buck of your life", and wrote that there was NO WAY a buck could rub urinate. He claimed it was physically impossible. Of course, we now have thousands of videos of bucks doing just that.

By: cnelk
Date:27-Apr-17

EF So, the real issue you have is with the younger generation? As a whole.

1-800- Call - A - Counselor

Date:27-Apr-17

That young Blaine dude from Mizzou wouldn't!!! He pretty too!!! Did I play correctly?

Date:27-Apr-17

Good grief. I was born in '54, grew up tasting deer poop to determine freshness, told time by the moss on the trees, navigated by the direction geese were flying, all that. I love the new tools available. They add a "fun" element to the process that many grouchy old goats could use a dash of.

This reminds me of the self-congratulatory threads on the LW about why some trad guys imagine themselves to be better hunters and woodsmen than others who choose to shoot a compound.

Sheesh!

Date:27-Apr-17

I believe there are guys that are naturally better woodsman than others. I also believe like anything else it's honing those skills and time in the field.

I get the point by the OP but I'm 35 and I know guys I grew up with that are exceptional woodsman. They all run trail cameras but they are also in the field A LOT. They have the proof on their walls to back it up too.

Date:27-Apr-17

I'd have to say yes, I know people who absolutely rely on what their few cameras tell them, and if they don't get something on cam they start losing confidence which is understandable to an extent I suppose. Most have never known any different. On the other hand the few times I have used cameras they add quite a bit of off season or away from the field excitement to look forward to.

By: Ambush
Date:27-Apr-17

I have a few cams out all year round for mule deer and moose. Cams have become a new off season "season" where I still get to "hunt". I really enjoy seeing the fawn/calf rates and individual animals that made it through another winter. I get some pretty entertaining and interesting animal interactions that make me smarter to. Like how a single coyote will spook the deer right out of there, whereas they will just wait for a bear to move on if they don't have little ones with them. I like watching the bucks/bulls grow over the summer and guessing what they might turn into.

When I go bear hunting in a few weeks, I'll take along cams to place on the carcass remains and gut pile. Once the ravens show up and ring the dinner bell, it's a circus sometimes ,with coyotes, wolves, black and grizzly bears. Sometimes lynx, martens and weasels to. Very entertaining!

I believe a person should limit their use of technology to what gives them satisfaction. (within reason, drones etc,) And let the next guy to do the same.

And for the record, I'm almost 64, I can navigate by compass, can find tinder and start a fire in the rain, make a spruce bow bed and shiver boldly through the night because I doubted the compass.

Date:27-Apr-17

If they are out enjoying themselves and having fun while running trail cams, I don't really care if they have any woodsmanship skills. This is hunting, where the end goal is to kill something, not some contest on who can learn the most about some animal while using the least amount of technology.

Date:27-Apr-17

But this thread is not measuring all those other factors. It only asks if some newer hunters who have not yet had the field time to acquire the skills are perhaps shortchanging themselves by relying on cams too much.

The other replies simply strayed off topic

Date:27-Apr-17

Some new hunters have tried to take advantage of what others may perceive as technological "shortcuts" since the dawn of man.

Imagine how the knapped head guys reacted when some lazy Indians started using steel "trade points". OMG, they aren't even chipping their own heads anymore!

Date:27-Apr-17

I see cablelas is doing a bundle, a crossbow, four cameras and two ozonics all for 1299 with free shipping. Only stipulation is you have to be under 40 on the date of purchase. Doing their part to recruit the youngsters.

Date:27-Apr-17

Honestly, with the problems recruiting and retaining younger hunters is rather see a young guy in the woods with a crossbow, checking his cameras with an Ozonics hat, than wandering around the city "hunting" Pokemon Go.

Get him into the woods first. Plenty of time after that for old coots to teach him the "right ways" to hunt.

Date:27-Apr-17

Cams are for entertainment purposes for me. Just like to see what's out there. It's never changed where or how or when I hunt. And I don't catalog all the "shooters" and give them stupid names.

By: APauls
Date:27-Apr-17

Well I'm glad we've clarified that basically the OP thinks older people just have better woodsmanship skills because he's older and I can discount this thread as useless and move on to something I'll learn something from.

Though, in all honesty, like any good car wreck I'll rubber neck it like the next guy and check back up on it Ha ha ha.

By: Jethro
Date:27-Apr-17

Perhaps running cams is a modern day skill and the pre 1970 crowd should try to keep up so as not to fall behind.

Date:27-Apr-17

If you are not educated in statistics, thats probably a good idea.

By: Bake
Date:27-Apr-17

You seem to have multiple questions:

1) Are cams taking away woodsmanship skills? -- Maybe--depending on user. But I'm not so sure we need to be able to guess how big a rack is by where the main beams create holes in the snow. Is it woodsmanship to make a wild ass guess ? :)

2) Are cam users "missing out"? I can't speak for us all. But personally, I don't believe I'm missing anything. In fact, it adds a whole new level of enjoyment for me personally.

You know, I'd like to be a better woodsman. I'd like to have more knowledge about identifying all the different types of oaks, woody browse, etc. And that is something I work on. I'd like to know more about all types of animals, and what makes them tick.

I'd like to understand terrain influences better in some circumstances. Sometimes I give up and just realize I may never know why critters prefer a certain travel path. Maybe it's just enough to know that they do indeed prefer it. There are obvious terrain and cover influences, but I'll admit there are some circumstances I'm aware of that I just can't tell you why deer prefer to move through one area that is unremarkable.

I've said it before, I'll repeat it. I hunt for me. If it makes me happy and is legal, and within my personal code of ethics and morality, then I'm going to do it. Be damned to those who disagree.

There are people on this site, who's opinions I respect, that do not use trail cameras for various reasons. Some of them having to do with impact. I get that. I've chosen to increase my enjoyment level at the cost of some impact problems. I realize that by checking and running cameras, I may create some negative impacts (although I don't believe much on my particular farm), but that is something I am willing to accept to increase my personal enjoyment.

Some people take minimizing scent to an extreme. I used to, until it sucked all the fun right out of hunting. So I quit doing it. Maybe maybe maybe it decreases my chances. Again, a cost I am willing to pay to increase my personal enjoyment.

So I guess I'll close with a question for you. (okay, two questions) Why do you care if cameras reduce woodsmanship skills? And what impact does it have on you if my woodsmanship skills suffer as a result of my running cameras?

Bake

By: DL
Date:27-Apr-17

DL's embedded Photo

Without trail cams you'd not see Sasquatch.

By: keith
Date:27-Apr-17

DL: That is actually saSQUAT! On cameras, I just think they're fun.

By: cnelk
Date:27-Apr-17

cnelk's embedded Photo

This looks like a 'pre-1970' specimen increasing his woodsmanship skills...

Date:27-Apr-17

No doubt some camhunters get fooled in thinking they have "patterned" a buck when they haven't.

No doubt some salty ol low tech hunters think they know everything and are in a rut and will continue in that same rut while silently being dissatisfied with their results.....

The answer is in the middle imo

Date:27-Apr-17

Bake... nail on the head with your last post!

Apauls.... "I don't think (nor have I ever heard of) ANY successful hunter relying on trail cams." Agree with that as well!

Date:27-Apr-17

No. All they tell me are what deer are in the area. They are more for enjoyment than anything else. You have to scout/use your "Woodsmanship" to be able to determine where to put a camera. And I was born before 1970, too.

I'm going turkey hunting...

Date:27-Apr-17

Bake answer is, its my thread. You dont understand statistics and sociology. Probably not a thread for you.

Date:27-Apr-17

It's more of a fairchase thing than woodsmanship/young guys issue by far.

" I don't think (nor have I ever heard of) ANY successful hunter relying on trail cams." Really? Come on! Who are we trying to fool here?

Date:27-Apr-17

Ok thank you

Data has been extracted from the distraction info. Hypothesis has been validated.

By: APauls
Date:27-Apr-17

Cazador - key word is RELY. Most use them - in supplement. The guys using it as their only form of scouting (ie have no woodsmanship skills) are not successful as far as big deer bowhunting is concerned.

Date:27-Apr-17

Trail cams are like 1000 yard rifles. In the hands of someone without experience they really aren't much of a success multiplier. In the hands of someone who was already deadly they can be really effective.

Date:27-Apr-17

Apauls... Caz is an anti-cam guy what do you expect? I still believe what you said rings true, for the most part. I run a few cams and NEVER rely on them to put in one stand over another. Is it fun to use the cams sporadically? Hell yes! Personally, I could give two s---s if someone thinks I "lack woodsmanship" or not. Same goes for the whiners that think cameras are ruining hunting or making it easier. That same whiner is shooting a Hoyt bow that shoots 300fps.

So, does the the use of aerial photos increase your odds and take away feet on the ground and woodsmanship?

By: cnelk
Date:27-Apr-17

Careful Rick, its not your thread... :) Do you understand sociology and statistics? :)

Date:27-Apr-17

Haha. Half the things you listed have no correlation to antler size...

I bet guys who rode horses when cars became popular said, "Those guys who drive those cars have lost any ability to be a good horseman."

The reason you did half of the things listed is because you didn't have the tools we have today. We don't have to guess what size the buck is from that track! We can get a picture and half the bucks we get on cams you would have NEVER known they were there because they are ghosts.

By: APauls
Date:27-Apr-17

A deer passed by your camera. That was 2 seconds out of a day. There was essentially another 24 hours that deer was somewhere else. Anyone who relies solely on those data points will struggle. Someone who has the ability to connect dots with everything else he sees will not, but dare I say that is starting to sound like woodsmanship skills. That would infer that person is seeing other things when he is walking around and hunting.

Date:27-Apr-17

I am anti-cam, but I don't think I've ever said anything about "young guys and lack of woodsman-ship". On the contrary. Just look at many of the photos posted by guys on here, they don't have a gray hair on their chin. I'd saying they're doing well and I too would take offense to the "Young guy/woodsmanship" crap. Especially since there are some personalities on this site that talk a good game, but are so full of excuses on why tags don't get punched it's hard to keep a straight face yet they're resident experts. If you can't see through their smoke, well, you're not reading the sign. I will stand by my attitude that cameras are not fair chase. If that makes me "Anti-Cam" so be it, but I'm young enough to know better.

Date:27-Apr-17

Date:27-Apr-17

One must be able to put his/her " ready to pounce " instincts aside and remain professional to understand that the OP is trying to measure something only.

Always think and avoid that sliding chair closer to table, puffing chest up , and banging keyboard. Stop ? think

The Original question was a brand new hunter, no experience, never been in the woods- now sets out in the woods. Would he/she rely on the cams too much and miss the boat ?

Always stop and think- Slowwwww down- think- yall get yall selves uptight. Think catagories ABCD. Address A without b,c,d interfering

Date:27-Apr-17

Cameras for certain have replaced an element of scouting to locate suitable game. In areas where baiting is allowed for deer, bear, hogs and the like, photos help hunters choose their hunting stands. In other areas, trail cameras help suggest the time and location of trail and plot use. There is a reason people buy them. Verizon line cameras help hunters locate game on a real time basis. Drone mounted cameras have many advantages to check fields, plots etc from high above. I know, I know,... they are for recreation only. No hunter uses them to increase the odds of success on the big one, hunters would not do that!

Date:27-Apr-17

By: Rock
Date:27-Apr-17

Where I see a problem is when some will not hunt until they get daytime pictures regularly of a target buck. If that buck only walks by once in the daylight or every once in a while with no pattern then you will not ever get a chance to shoot him with that approach.

By: Bake
Date:27-Apr-17

EF. . . I think we've had a lack of communication here. . . :)

Because your initial post and your last post are completely different. In your initial post you stated nothing about a new hunter.

Date:27-Apr-17

Personally I prefer boot time vs a camera ( I have used camera's on occasion )

Question :

If the camera is covering a bait pile, is it a tool of scouting, or is it a tool of / for information ?

For those who rely on camera's so be it.

For those who do not use a camera so be it.

When it comes to mature bucks you need experience, information, and a little luck.

The rest is just opinion's.

Date:27-Apr-17

Seems luck has a lot more to do with it than most like to admit, there are always exceptions. You don't need much luck if you're the type who builds sanctuaries for deer like the lakowskis and that other "deer freak" guy who all have exclusive access to 1000's of acres, more power to them but not my gig. I'm a blue collar hunter, thats what I like and that is how I will remain.

By: APauls
Date:27-Apr-17

Thanks Bake^^

That may have been what you meant to say EF, but not what came out. As far as chest puffing goes, as far as I can tell there was only one statement claiming a group of people superior to others in any way.

As far as cameras goes, I think there have been many good responses. In fact, I hunted a group of bucks that I would see every single time I hunted, and I set up two cameras in that area trying to photograph them and got ZERO pictures of them, yet I saw them every time I hunted. They were so big it hurts. I simply wanted a pic to show my buddies what I was telling them was real. In the end I got no pics. So to not hunt because you don't have pictures in my mind would be ludicrous. A buck could walk past a camera a million different ways without getting a pic. My favourite use of cameras is using them on scrapes to see what is around, and which way they are headed before/after.

Date:27-Apr-17

My favorite use is to catch Montana trespassers of the human nature.

Date:27-Apr-17

"Always stop and think- Slowwwww down- think- yall get yall selves uptight. Think catagories ABCD. Address A without b,c,d interfering"

Huh?

Date:27-Apr-17

"The Original question was a brand new hunter, no experience, never been in the woods- now sets out in the woods. Would he/she rely on the cams too much and miss the boat ?"

I'm going to say "No, he/she would not rely on cams too much." Have you seen the price of trail cameras lately? Most brand new hunters can barely afford the bare minimum in equipment to get started. They certainly can't afford a handful of trail cams.

By: Jethro
Date:27-Apr-17

The answer you are looking for EF is that NO they are not missing out. Young/old, seasoned/newbie - if a person is having fun and enjoying their legal hunt with whatever technology they choose to use or not use, then it can't be said they are "missing the boat". Just because somebody partakes of a hobby in a different manner than you like, does not make it wrong or less satisfying.

Date:27-Apr-17

Trespassing signs and small tracts of land to hunt ruin woodsmanship a lot more so than the tech you are citing. How much woodsmanship can you really learn if you are hunting the same back 40 year after year and you have to be a freaking ninja to not blow the deer off the property? That's where the whole deer hunting as animal husbandry sickness has arisen, which has driven the technological advancements. It's a whole feedback loop that has no end in sight.

Date:27-Apr-17

Loud voices!!!

By: t-roy
Date:27-Apr-17

Dang! I missed a lot in the past 8 hours. I've been out catching piss bugs and tracking spiders for this upcoming Fall. BTW,...does anyone know how to tell the sex on a piss bug? Seems my woodsmanship skills are starting to wane :-)

Date:27-Apr-17

Resounding YES here! Trail cams robbed me of woodsmanship skills and I don't even use them!

Date:27-Apr-17

On a serious note, I tend to think those that use trail cams in a very strategic way would probably go to similar lengths scouting if trail cams were not available. Are they missing out? Hard to say because while they might miss out on something they are probably gaining other knowledge they wouldn't have with trail cam use.

For me personally, I don't use them because I think used in a certain way they are too much of an advantage. Otherwise, I think they just are an expensive habit to get into for casual use and "inventory". Not worth the cost to me, especially where I hunt, but it is enjoyable to see pictures from them when friends send'em my way.

Date:27-Apr-17

how could anyone think that not have to scout, only to go pick up a memory card, could be considered a shortcut that would lessen woodsmanship skills.

Date:27-Apr-17

What if you just like to look at deer pictures ? The bucks I watch grow through the vevet stage are mostly all gone as soon as they rub anyway. I killed a buck last year that I had three night time pics of for two days before I killed him. Cameras for me are more of a toy than a tool to hunt with. I learned to deer hunt like most my age, and I haven't forgotten.

Date:27-Apr-17

T-roy, its easy to tell but the hard part is spreading their legs.

Date:27-Apr-17

I have a few cameras and I only use them to take inventory. I think todays technology as far as cameras go has gone too far. I mean now you can get a picture sent to your phone or pc in real time. Guys put out 30 or more on one piece of ground that may only be a 150-200 acres. I don't think a ton of folks use them that way but there are more doing it then most of us think. Bucks being named when never actually seen live on the hoof, to me that is garbage. Scooby

Date:27-Apr-17

Woodsmanship was doomed when they invented matches.

Date:27-Apr-17

Cams are not taking away woodsmanship skills, and neither are any of the other technological innovations which have come to archery in the last century. The mind set of looking for the easy way out and the belief that equipment can create a competent hunter are what is killing outdoor skills.

By: TD
Date:27-Apr-17

I'm guessing somebody is having a tough time programing their camera........ go find a grandchild..... they can figure it out for ya.....

Or maybe it's just plain ol envy and jealousy when they see somebody else with their hands wrapped around a 180..... they OBVIOUSLY had to have "cheated" somehow to kill it..... and in the next breath talk about it's not about the trophy but the experience.....

or maybe there is some aversion to dealing with dead animals...... know lots of folks who never seem to kill much and when the opportunity to do so comes along they walk the other way.... I really haven't a clue as to why anyone would care how somebody else killed something. Did it somehow cheapen or effect your hunt in any way? Why would it?

Have no issues with how anyone one else chooses to hunt. And don't really care what anyone thinks about how I hunt. A person hunts for themselves IMO. Worrying about how or why somebody else does.... seems a waste.

Date:27-Apr-17

TD

U jumped the gun cap. You went straight to the chest puff defense mode instead of rising above that and studying the thread for original intent. Would a new hunter with no skills be distracted by cams and be late in acquiring more prim woods skills ?

Got to slow down man and not go on the defense so instinctively. Remember college.

Date:27-Apr-17

"Would a new hunter with no skills be distracted by cams and be late in acquiring more prim woods skills?"

Not anymore than he would be distracted by hot chicks his age who don't approve of hunting of any type. Get him out in the woods by any means possible. Otherwise he will be lost to hunting. The statistics you're vaguely referencing don't lie.

Wake up and look around, old feller. Your world died about the time your namesake died - 1962. Just like old EF, it ain't coming back no matter how much old dinosaurs bitch and gripe.

Date:27-Apr-17

Another great thing about having woodsmanship skills is that you don't have all the drama, crying and moaning (not to mention the loss of $$$) when someone steals it from you like they do trail cams, because they can't.....unless they cut your head off, and then it won't matter anyway!

Date:27-Apr-17

Jacque

I'm not even old. You just have to beat the chest puff instinct- rise above it and see the educational aspect of the hypothesis.

By: cnelk
Date:27-Apr-17

He's right Lou, he isnt old. He grew up in the 80's and 90's, learning some hunting stuff we knew for years. In the 70's I used fishing line strung across trails to see if deer had passed by my stand.

Hell, I barely remember the 80s, and the 90s I was busy with a career and raising kids.

Date:27-Apr-17

I was taught woodsmanship in the 60's by my mentors as a child with not much more than my clothing, a knife and a bow/gun. In the 70's I applied it myself and really learned it. Then I gravitated towards just about any gadget or trick I could find to hunt with. In the 90's I reached my "tech limit" and gradually reduced what I use to as basic as I can get. Keeping it simple and dependent on myself is what still keeps me in the woods and enjoying every second of it.

Whatever you need to fulfill that is what you should do.

Date:27-Apr-17

Ah, so he just acts old without the wisdom you and. I have gained over the years. But he hasnt learned enough to know insulting those who don't agree isn't productive.

The hypothesis is based upon a false premise. There is no proof to support it, only supposition.

Suffer fools gladly.

By: TD
Date:27-Apr-17

Don't know about any chest puffing..... but I do know chest thumping when I hear it.......

Date:28-Apr-17

Some of you guys should be out working on your shooting skills instead of adding to this useless thread. No wonder I rarely post here anymore. I consider myself a young hunter and I killed 12 animals last year with my bow in 3 different states. Only 3 of them I had on camera. Guess my woodsman skills suck too!! SMH

Date:28-Apr-17

Holly crap, thought I logged onto the leather wall.

Date:28-Apr-17

I see the instinctive revert to quantity . This is a red flag. Usually the woodswise veterans talk about how many they could have killed, but chose not to. Conservation. No, the hypothesis was overwhelmingly proven positive. What happened was so many were so used to going on defense, puffing the chest, sliding closer to the keyboard, that they fell to the self-fulfilling prophecy. So, in conclusion , now that this thread has accomplished the sampling, if I were a new hunter, I would take away from it--- I'll still run my cams, but I'll be sure to also focus on and not neglect looking and reading sign, learning specific browse, learning patterns, etc. and most of all keep an open mind in all of life, and not jump to trendy conclusions. Somebody in life might be trying to help me and I wouldn't want to always be on the instinctive defense. Heck, even Mr Hutton at 51 yrs is still open minded and seeks to learn.

By: meatus
Date:28-Apr-17

Old = Elite, Young = Lazy, typical know it all post.

By: 1boonr
Date:28-Apr-17

I take pictures of deer I never see. I see bucks I never get pictures of. I don't see how that could be considered unethical unless someone was just wanting to stir up some sheet. of all the mature bucks I have shot I have got one picture of two different ones. neither were shot within a quarter mile of where picture was taken. how could that be unethical?

Date:28-Apr-17

"Not jump to trendy conclusions ". Ahem. Such as, trail cams are taking away woodsmanship skills.

Classic.

Date:28-Apr-17

jacquemo

You seem to have a hard time comprehending. I can't help you son.

By: cnelk
Date:28-Apr-17

Ooooohhhhhh no ya didn't ....... just write that...

By: TD
Date:28-Apr-17

Ahhhhh..... the smartest elitist in the room....... how refreshing....

at least he has his excuses down..... whitetails must be on the verge of being endangered....

wifishkiller, I'm thinkin' it feels leatherwallish.... because it is in fact from the leatherwall.....

Date:28-Apr-17

*sits back and eats popcorn while scouting Google Earth for areas to place trail cams once snow pack melts away*

Date:28-Apr-17

I sometimes struggle to comprehend incoherent hubris. Has always been one of my weaknesses, but I'm working on it. I'm only 63 so there's still time.

Date:28-Apr-17
Jaquomo's Supporting Link

Here's a great link that helps make sense of this thread.

By: TD
Date:29-Apr-17

Nice edit EF...... that'snot what ya said..... I saw something about questioning edjumication.......

I'm thinking it's time to go back to where it's comfortable... back on the LW...... I'm sure these discussions about how much better "we" must be are much more acceptable when talking to the regular round table curmudgeons.... at 61 I'm a pup to Jaq's 63.... apparently it's not an age thang.... it's a mentality...

And I don't have to puff out my chest..... it comes pre-puffed.......

Date:29-Apr-17

Maybe some of the younger hunters need to YouTube "EF Hutton " to understand his MO.....

Date:29-Apr-17

When EF Hutton Speaks, people listen

Date:29-Apr-17

For entertainment purposes? Kinda like TBM, but TBM made more sense and had a sense of humor.

Date:29-Apr-17

We obviously have our new resident narcissist.

Date:29-Apr-17

ROTFLMAO

By: cnelk
Date:29-Apr-17

Lately Bowsite has been getting pretty good at removing seemed useless threads.

How about this one boys?

Date:29-Apr-17

I think the question should be , do cams make hunting easier? And the answer is , yes.

Date:29-Apr-17

I didn't read all the posts above so forgive me if this has been covered. I grew up in the mountains we were never within 2 miles of the truck always farther. I don't see much woodsmanship in eastern hunting compared to Mountain hunting. When I posted this on a similar post before nobody commented. What woodsmanship do you need when your half mile way from the truck.

Date:29-Apr-17

LBshooter, just like on my treestand thread - treestands make hunting "easier". So do laminated bows, synthetic bowstring, modern broadheads, camo (including checkered wool shirts), face paint, waterproof boots, 4WD vehicles, internal combustion engines, for that matter.

Who gets to decide the relative difficulty of hunting challenges? Who has a license to criticize and diss other hunters for using legal methods?

Date:29-Apr-17

cameras "should" be a tool as so many other things available in todays hunting world. SOME rely only on those tools while others are more about "learning" about their quarry & the woods they hunt. I'm starting my 61st year of bowhunting & though not as easy, still enjoy walking the places I bowhunt just to actually "see" all the things that make the woods tick.. I run a camera or two at times but only to see what might be passing on certain trails. I don't NAME wild deer & do not have a hit list. I truly feel I learn more in one or two foot trips through the area than all the pics gathered in a month or so,

Date:29-Apr-17

Woodsmanship is way more than hunting. I would say maybe 10%. The other 90% you don't need with roads every mile sq......... As a kid I could stay out for days with a fishing pole and a 15# pack...... And we still didn't know real woodsmanship like the old guys did just to live. Most woodsmanship begins after the kill.

By: 1boonr
Date:29-Apr-17

lbshooter-do we have to avoid anything that makes hunting easier? if so don't longbows make hunting easier? Is using my recurve hard enough?

Date:29-Apr-17

Forest......you need to go back and truly get a taste of swampmanship or thicketmanship lol. Hands and kneeing it through some cutover with a compass in one hand and swatting everything in your high school science book with the other isn't fun.....not to mention the briars that would make devils club seem easier than boiled okra.

Date:29-Apr-17
Cazador's Supporting Link

I had to laugh, was listening to a "podcast" and it rolls right into this topic. Guy (big bull killer) puts out 30 to 40 cameras, this year, then laters says he almost had 60.

Funny thing is then he says "Any good wallow has 3-4 cameras on it, really sad" but yet he's ok with almost 60 units out and about. I'm not a "Rules guy" far from it, but I'm glad to see MT had vision to regulate them a bit.

Date:29-Apr-17

The internet makes hunting easier.

Date:29-Apr-17

I'd say so, as a younger-ish guy myself (28) I have tarted to only use them for verification of new areas that look good. I like being surprised

Date:29-Apr-17

Forrestbows, come to the Adirondack mountains. I would get you lost right quick, possibly me too!! :) Scooby

Date:29-Apr-17

"Woodsmanship begins after the kill". This is the single most ass of nine statement made on bowsite since TBM

By: TD
Date:30-Apr-17

I disagree. I know a good many folks that consider themselves gifted "woodsmen" completely worthless or worse when the game hits the ground. The only thing they know other than go get the atv is drag... and it's kinda tough to drag a deer much less an elk a few miles. Even when they finally get things broken down into manageable parcels (without hanging it from something), they are totally worthless at actually packing the parcels out, they physically aren't capable even if they had the right gear with them to pull it off.

IMO Forest has a great point.... "Woodsmanship" is laughable if you are within a mile of your vehicle. "Woodsmanship" involves coping with being out for days and miles away from the comforts. Not figuring out how big a buck rubbed up that tree in your backyard. Good grief....

Date:30-Apr-17

I know nothing of swampmanship!! Not sure I'm man enough, but if you don't know that most skill is after the kill you don't hunt much! Or not very far from the truck. Big snow storm will let you Know how savy your woodsmanship is real quick. Or a elk down miles in and it's 75 degrees.... Having a bear want your kill more than you.... Woodsmanship.

Date:30-Apr-17

A lot of, perhaps most, woodsmanship skills aren't kill oriented at all... unless we include being killed ourselves due to a lack of them... in which case they would ALL be completely relevant prior.

Date:30-Apr-17

AAhh, Forest come talk to me when fly in and get dropped of in Alaska and do a 35 mile loop for seventeen day pulling your food in a plastic sled all the way. when you kill the bear then you put the 165lb green hide on the sled and pull it fourteen miles to the landing strip without a guide.

We have a lot of clichés on here and woodsmanship is not riding a four wheeler to a food plot and taking it to a processor. I am not claiming to be the woods master but go into the forested regions and to consistently kill mature bucks on public land requires much greater woodsmanship than hunting agriculture lands.

Walk a mile into an area without a GPS in the dark without a flash light and find your designated tree will test many. I had a career of hitting unknown spots in the dark in areas throughout the world that I may have not existed and I see my skills eroding precipitously.

Sorry for the hack but this is like asking if you need base layers at 9K in the Rocky mountains in September.

Date:30-Apr-17

Funny this subject should come up. This is a magazine article I wrote not long ago. Sorry I could not get it to format

Changing Times-A Generation Lost?

We sit around the campfire, the three of us. It is a cold, bleak night at the end of a cold bleak day. We walked a lot that day, saw a lot, made notes and maps. February is often a bleak month. But it is month to gather information. It is February, 1980. The hardwoods are naked. We had notes of rubs, scrapes, trails we did not know about, creek and fence crossings that suddenly became used, small, dense thickets we had ignored. It is called, post-season scouting. Once, and still to me, it is an integral part of deer hunting. A time to gain knowledge that may be put to use in seven or eight months. Keys to where that big buck vanished, why trails became unused and new trails opened. Rub lines and signpost rubs we did not know about during the season. Food plots do not exist in my hunting, nor do feeders or trail cameras. I gather all my information from the woods.

It is hot so we go in the early morning. Binoculars are a must. We scan trees, looking for growing acorns or ripening fruit. We check old, tried and true crossings. Has a tree fallen and changed a travel pattern? Are they still coming off the ridge, down the sloping point? Are the stands all safe, shooting lanes open? It is August, 1980. It is called pre-season scouting. It is the time plans are made, stands picked for opening day, a last limb or bush trimmed. The season will open in a month. We won’t be back until then. We have done our homework.

On the back porch, clustered around the table, we compare notes, the three of us. There is talk of the big, white oak, magnet tree and three persimmons in the bottom. How a big hickory went down in the storm and took down two posts of the old fence. It is now a major crossing. Mickey put a stand up. They are watering some and playing in the old, water-filled sinkhole. Good place to kill a doe.

It is 2017. He turns off Face Book. He pulls up his latest pictures. At the feeder, a lot of does and fawns are visiting. Two young bucks come regularly in daylight, one maybe shooter is coming at night. He moves to the next set of pictures from another camera. It is August.

His pictures from the middle food plot look good. He needs to fix the window on the shooting house. Next year, he will put in another, larger plot with a shooting house on each end, more cameras. The deer are coming late in the afternoon, several does with fawns and a couple young bucks. His camera doesn’t show what is coming at night. Last year, the two bucks he wanted to kill, never showed during daylight. He had only night pictures.

He makes notes on what deer he is seeing on camera and where and even names a couple of them. He is not sure if he will hunt opening day. He has to pull his feeders out two weeks in advance. Will the deer still come to check on them? He needs another ladder stand, one by the trail into the second food plot. Maybe in that big tree. He thinks it is a maple.

Over the past dozen years, I have seen it become more and more prevalent. This dependency on supplemental feeding and technology to help a hunter kill a buck. It worries me. I know it shouldn’t, it is really none of my business. But I fear we are, maybe not so slowly, losing a certain breed of hunter. The woodsman.

I read and hear talk between younger hunters who have no concept of woodscraft. They have no idea how to scout. They do not know what to look for. They would not know a fence crossing if they saw it. They have no concept of altering structure to make a deer go a certain way. They know nothing of travel patterns or preferred feeding of woodland browse. They pick stand trees based on where the food plot or feeder is located. They ask each year, “When is the rut?” Some, hunt out of near mansions complete with heaters. Instead of constantly scanning the woods around them for a slight flash of movement, they play video games and text, looking at the feeder or food plot, now and then. That worries me. I know, it shouldn’t. I know there are still some who know the ways of the deer and other woodland creatures. I hope they pass it on. How much the techno hunters miss in not learning the wildlife ways.

I am old. I know and practice the old ways. Last year, on two pieces of new property, I scouted, considered and placed eight stands, based on what I could see. There were no food plots, no fields. The properties were hardwood and cedar ridges and hollows. How I loved those days of walking, looking, learning and making decisions. I had never seen either piece of land before. It was all new, exciting.

From those eight stands, I killed nine deer-seven does, two bucks and passed up several. I killed at least one deer from seven of the eight stands. That one stand, I missed a bow shot and passed up a young buck. I quickly realized two things. First, it was about 40-yards in the wrong place. Second, it was facing the wrong way. I fixed that in February.

I climbed trees, hung fixed position stands and put up ladder stands. I cut shooting lanes and even made a mock scrape. I noted the oaks and beech trees that held mast and the four persimmon trees I did not know were there. I placed a stand 32-yards from an obvious fence crossing. The first time I hunted it, I killed two does and passed up four bucks. I am 73-years old and I enjoyed last season as much as any I have had in years. I had new property to learn, new trails to find.

For many years, hunting for me was a profession and I studied all I could to become better-better at hunting, better as woodsman-and I did. To me, that was the joy of hunting. The killing, the trophies, were a bonus. I don’t see that much today. Today, it is all about how can we get bigger bucks? How can we kill bigger bucks? How can we make killing one easier? Is it supposed to be easier? Is that what hunting is becoming?

It worries me. I know, it shouldn’t. I’m just an old man, set in his ways. I hate to see it dying out. Face Book is bad enough. ###

Date:30-Apr-17

I do agree some with that. But i must give credit- i know several youngsters who are very good woodsman. Generally, bowriter is right, but there are many many exceptions. Now how many of them will see the trumpet creeper leaves nibbled off, i do not know.

By: t-roy
Date:30-Apr-17

Are those leaves hallucinogenic?.....just wondering

Date:30-Apr-17

ahunter55's embedded Photo

I'm an "old" man too (75+) & blessed to be starting 61 years in the sport of Archery/bowhunting. When I "walk" a hunting area, new or old I feel I see so much more than many of the younger "horn" hunters of today. I like taking my hunting kids (adults now) & my hunting G-kids when possible. When we have these times in the woods, scouting or bowhunting I am always "telling" or "explaining" why or what about the things "I" see. I want them to be their best once I am gone & "try" to pass on whatever I know. My oldest bowhunting son (43 now) was with me on an out of state bowhunt when he was in his early 20s. We were at a lodge & 8 other bowhunters made up the camp. Anyway, another father/son were there & the kid (20s too) hit a Deer & they could not find it. The 2 boys were talking & I hear my son say, ask my Dad to go look, if it's dead, he will find it. Then, I knew my son HAD been listening those years I was telling him stuff. Long story, short, I did find that kids Buck but I was lucky (they will never know that). Today, as I said, we have so many tools & sadly, most rely "only" on these.

Date:30-Apr-17

Jaq, when a hunter knows the exact time an animal walks down the trail it make its a lot easier. I'm not saying those who use them shouldn't, it just changes the term of hunting in my opinion. I don't use cams, I don't hang stands, when I use a stand it's a ladder that puts my feet about four feet above the ground. Yes, I drive a truck so I guess it makes it easier for me to get to my hunting grounds. I don't see in my answer that I'm dissing or critizing anyone. simply stating a fact, and that when you know what time a animal shows up and you have pics and times of it day in and day out, yes that makes it easy. Sorry to all those who are offended but as the old saying goes, the truth hurts. I'm sure it won't Chang enter way you hunt and that's fine, not my intent. Each has to perform to their potential and if it helps to use high tech fine.

Date:30-Apr-17

Good post LB.

Date:30-Apr-17

Lb, I think you're giving cameras more credit than due. With timed feeders, I can see that. But the whitetail guys I know who use cameras don't report that experience. Rather, they see deer on the cameras that they never see in daylight, see bucks that are wandering through.

I have a couple cams that I use on elk waterholes, mostly for entertainment. I often get bulls on cam that I never see on the ground, have never killed an elk at one of the wallows I'm camming. Actually have only ever killed one bull I have photographed in the 12 years I've been doing it, and I stalked him 2 miles away.

Has this affected my "woodsmanship"? Hardly. Has it made anything easier? Nope. But I get some great photos for entertainment and which tell me about some of the elk in the area. It makes the overall process more fun, and enjoying the process is what I hunt for and live for year-round, not just "filling a tag" by someone's else's standards. I think many others feel the same way.

Making rash, broad-brush judgments about people who do things differently is a form of bigotry. Interesting that those who seem to disapprove of cameras also tend to be hard-core trad guys.....

Date:30-Apr-17

True story............

Friend is sitting a bear bait for a week straight. The bait is getting crushed but yet no bear encounters when the stand is occupied although the bait keeps getting crushed.

Trail camera placed, and low and behold, said bear is coming in right at first light vs. last light. In otherwords, the morning of all things.

First sit based on times and photos from trail cam, dead bear. Not many guys are going to sit a bear bait from dawn to dusk. I understand that bear had every opportunity to not come in while the stand was occupied, but that camera told him when to be there vs. the traditional "The bear must be coming in after dark".

I read somewhere on another post, we're doing less hunting and simply becoming "Shooters". I couldn't agree more, and will be changing my tactics up greatly as I'm starting to get bored with traditional "bowhunting tecniques". In short, it's starting to get boring.

Date:30-Apr-17

All hunting presents problems keeping people from success. Problems lead to problem-solving efforts. Those efforts lead to technologies unavailable in past decades. Technology (use) can overcome human limitations and problems inhibiting or preventing success. Reliance on technology?...that's where loss of certain skills shows up I suppose. I try to keep as much tech (especially the electronic kind) out of my hunting as possible but it's pretty much always available.

Trail cameras: I'm sure they can be a problem-solving aid. They are marketed with that in mind. They will do that if you are savvy enough to use them and collect the data. Most of us are probably using them as an adjunct to having fun and seeing what we often miss by not being a 24 hr inhabitant of the woods. We're not getting enough data or using it to plot the precise kill point. We may be collecting enough info to know 'he' is around and frequenting one area more than another. Used enough they will likely entice us to make decisions on where to hunt and potentially lead to the kill.

Personally I don't think cameras have to lead to a loss of human skills. Neither does a rangefinder but if you surrender your human skills in favor of technology then...yes...tech wins. I own and sometimes have cameras up on my farm. They're a toy for me. I post them in places I don't hunt and I collect the images about every month or two.

Date:30-Apr-17

Trail camera has never helped me build a fire in the rain, tie a load on a horse or navigate by land marks.

Date:30-Apr-17

If camera can dispell myths then they may enhance woodsmanship.

Date:30-Apr-17

"Making rash, broad-brush judgments about people who do things differently is a form of bigotry. Interesting that those who seem to disapprove of cameras also tend to be hard-core trad guys....."

Isn't the second half of your statement Jaq an example of the first half of your statement.

Date:30-Apr-17

"Making rash, broad-brush judgments about people who do things differently is a form of bigotry. Interesting that those who seem to disapprove of cameras also tend to be hard-core trad guys....."

Isn't the second half of your statement Jaq an example of the first half of your statement.

By: Ambush
Date:30-Apr-17

For me, I've not shot bucks that I would have otherwise probably shot, because I had pics of a "better" buck. These are somewhat transient mule deer and getting a few pics early on certainly doesn't mean you'll ever see him or even have him come through again. But you wait and hope, many times in vain and at last light on the last day you just accept you have an unfilled tag. But you have pics to help dream about next year.

Cams probably make me shoot fewer deer.

By: TD
Date:30-Apr-17

Ambush x2. I've let a good number of bucks walk from knowing what else was in there.

I've also always wondered if those who decry cams and foodplots and other such efforts..... if they honestly put in HALF the overall time, thought and effort as many of those who do use them...... you see it all the time, people putting others down for "trying too hard".....

"Well yeah, I could have done that too.... if I really wanted too...."

Classic.

Date:01-May-17

LB, I wasn't making a broad-brush negative judgment about people hunting in a legal manner, just making an observation from posts on this and other previous threads. "I'm a superior woodsman and I dont use technology (besides whatever technology I approve of) so guys who do use it are inferior, poor hunters, lacking the skills I have worked so hard to develop.."

I get it that many trad guys are semi-Luddites by choice, and that's ok. But look at posts on this thread that imply hunters who use technology are lacking in woodsmanship, missing skills, whatever. Pretty much all from LW guys who wandered over here to pass judgment. Old EF tried to force a false conclusion unsupported by any facts. Even MichaelArnette posted "I'd say so", and he's too young to know any better.

The open minded trad guys who frequent these big game hunting forums like Kevin Dill, Glunt and Rock and even Woods Walker acknowledge that its what you make of it, nothing more, no reflection on the skill or "woodsmanship" level of younger guys. If cameras get them out in the woods and keeps them there, adding to their enjoyment (and MAYBE to their success), that's a great thing.

I remember these same aspersions being cast when compounds started to become popular. The sound of gums flapping.

Date:01-May-17

There is so much more to hunting North American big game than just whitetails. And trail cameras play such an insignificant part of hunting the other 28. Trail cameras are effective only because of the territorial nature and high-density of white tails. They're slightly useful for other species in certain situations.

Perhaps there is a subset of young people who hunt only whitetails who are losing something, but I'd say that their camera use is going to teach them something and there's always going to be that subset of hunters for whom hunting is not so consuming (as it is for most of us on this website) that they'd immerse themselves in it. That's not a new development.

Date:01-May-17

Pretty sure it was purposed as question for discussion, far less a definitive statement.

Date:01-May-17

" If cameras get them out in the woods and keeps them there, adding to their enjoyment (and MAYBE to their success), that's a great thing. "

.

And accumulated time in the woods....along with the learning aspect....is what leads to woodsmanship.

Date:01-May-17

Some of the most prolific Blacktail hunters I know use cams exclusively to know when and where to hunt.

Not to mention the thousands used for black bear,pronghorn,coues.Elk/mule deer get some play as well.

Add up all the bowkills in NA annually and I think it would be remarkable nationwide of how many animals got their photo taken by somebody.

Date:01-May-17

The next thread should be titled... "Are feeders/baiting taking away woodsmanship skills". It would be some good read (not really). :)

Date:01-May-17

Anyone that hunts over bait doesn't know anything about Hunting!!! Nothing! ;)

By: APauls
Date:01-May-17

ahunter55 carrying a deer on your shoulders through the bush with no orange doesn't seem like a smart thing to do. I believe they even teach you not to do such a thing in Hunters Safety classes. I wouldn't use that picture in an online situation.

Date:01-May-17

" "Are feeders/baiting taking away woodsmanship skills". It would be some good read (not really). :)"

A while back I read a book about the Long Hunters from the late 1700s to the mid 1800s.

One of their tactics was to go into the wilderness with a brace and bit and some salt. When they found a good location, they would drill holes in a log, fill the holes with salt and plug the tops of the holes. Over the course of a couple of months the salt would be absorbed into the wood. They would return in the fall and hunt these logs for deer and elk. But these guys weren't true woodsman like we have today. . . .

Date:01-May-17

I'm not that old. Only 52.

By: Bake
Date:01-May-17

I kinda wanted to keep up with this thread. . . but I've been hunting. Oh well, doesn't appear I missed much

By: XMan
Date:01-May-17

A camera only tells you what is in the area and how frequently the animal is visiting. It doesn't tell you where to put it to get the most infomation possible. It also doesn't tell a hunter where to setup a treestand, how to play the wind, how the animal is moving through that particular area and if you have you best chances in the morning or evening. sure they help but you still need woodsmanship skills to do all the rest.

Date:01-May-17
MNRazorhead's Supporting Link

Is this thread making me dumber?

Date:01-May-17

"Is this thread making me dumber?"

It did for me. When I saw the title this morning, I was thinking it was about cams on a bow and this being another compound VS trad thread. Then, I opened it and realized that it was about cameras and I remembered that I'd actually replied several times last week.

Date:02-May-17

Admittedly, I did not read every post on this thread. But, I did read enough to know some things never change. The OP has been spouting this same condescending, insulting, rhetoric for years on a different hunting site. As a matter of fact, he also goes by the screen name lamplighter on here. His name is not Jim McKinney and he's not from Ms either. Regardless, he's a broken record. Take it for what it's worth.

Date:03-May-17

I'm afraid you have me mixed up with someone else. I was born and raised rgt here in Walthall county. If you would have read the intent of the first post you would see it is to help youngsters realize they need to not stop the learning curve at the cam. You only looked at the uneducated rethoric that fit your desired end. You should go back to whereever it is you came from. We have rules here on bowsite.

Date:03-May-17

I'm afraid you have me mixed up with someone else. I was born and raised rgt here in Walthall county. If you would have read the intent of the first post you would see it is to help youngsters realize they need to not stop the learning curve at the cam. You only looked at the uneducated rethoric that fit your desired end. You should go back to whereever it is you came from. We have rules here on bowsite.

Date:03-May-17

Them Louisiana hunters mad at us for charging alot on non res licenses. They like to come to Mississippi and shoot all of our does

Date:03-May-17

Nice try!

Date:03-May-17

Trolls not welcome here. We have debates here but are respective of one another.

Date:03-May-17

I will go with YES are today's camera runners missing out YES. and the camera shows them everything they are missing out on. I get pissed when I look at my cameras because each year I bear hunt and don't see squat, but the camera shows they are there before and after season. same thing in big game season, with preseason soft antlers there are a couple of booner bucks, take the camera down and them suckers become ghosts, put the camera up after season and valla here they are again. Today's camera runners are missing out. They are missing out on tons of game and now with pictures they can see what they missed out on. It is irritating.

oz

Date:03-May-17

Some serious reading comprehension issues on bowsite.


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