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Cougars could help control herds
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Messages posted to thread:
AH 12-Aug-16
Brotsky 12-Aug-16
bb 12-Aug-16
Jack Harris 12-Aug-16
Old School 12-Aug-16
bb 12-Aug-16
wilhille 12-Aug-16
wilhille 12-Aug-16
tradmt 12-Aug-16
Michael Schwister 12-Aug-16
wilhille 12-Aug-16
IdyllwildArcher 12-Aug-16
Bigdan 12-Aug-16
drycreek 12-Aug-16
bb 12-Aug-16
Squash 12-Aug-16
Surfbow 12-Aug-16
55 zipper 12-Aug-16
bb 12-Aug-16
uteangler 13-Aug-16
DC 13-Aug-16
Stoney 14-Aug-16
Matt 14-Aug-16
Aubs8 14-Aug-16
bb 14-Aug-16
bad karma 14-Aug-16
r-man 14-Aug-16
Bou'bound 14-Aug-16
Fuzzy 15-Aug-16
walking buffalo 15-Aug-16
firemen 17-Aug-16
Beendare 17-Aug-16
GotBowAz 17-Aug-16
writer 17-Aug-16
nutritionist 04-Sep-16
Mint 08-Sep-16
arch2112 08-Sep-16
Glunt@work 08-Sep-16
swampokie 08-Sep-16
Ziek 08-Sep-16
Fuzzy 08-Sep-16
GotBowAz 08-Sep-16
Fuzzy 08-Sep-16
Glunt@work 08-Sep-16


By: AH
Date:12-Aug-16
AH's Supporting Link

Wow! Really not much else to say to this one.

Story below and link.

Big cats are the new big idea for reducing the deer population in the Northeast, where growing numbers of bucks and does wander through backyards and onto roads - - where they pose a danger to themselves and humans.

A group of scientists is calling for re-introducing cougars into states like New York and New Jersey in an attempt to lower the exploding whitetail deer population. They say the 220-pound predators are a natural solution to a problem that causes 1.2 milllion car accidents per year, including 200 fatalities.

"Recolonization by large carnivores could provide an efficient solution to the problem of deer overabundance,” wrote study authors Laura Prugh, a wildlife scientist at the University of Washington; Sophie Gilbert, a wildlife ecologist at the University of Idaho and several colleagues. The study, published in the journal Conservation Letters, argues the region could see fewer fatalities and save $2.13 billion over the course of 30 years if the prowling beasts were reintroduced into the wild.

A 220-pound cougar could kill hundreds of deer in its lifetime, say the study's author. (Associated Press) While the authors acknowledge "large carnivore recolonization" could lead to attacks on humans, pets and livestock, the number of lives lost would be far less than the number of lives saved.

The eastern cougar was last seen in Maine in 1938, but the cats the study refers to are also known in other regions by names including catamount, panther, puma and mountain lion. The cats have been seen as far north as the Canadian Yukon and as far south as the Andes mountains of South America.

It's not the first time scientists have thought way out of the box in an effort to cull the hoofed herds. Several locales, including New York communities of Ithaca, Staten Island and East Hampton, have spent taxpayer funds to tranquilize and sterilize deer.

Auto accidents attributed to deer also are blamed for $1.66 billion in damages and 29,000 injuries to people, making them the "most dangerous large mammal in North America to humans," according to the report.

The study asserts that a single cougar may kill 259 deer over a six-year lifespan.

The study, published last month, cites South Dakota -- where the giant cats were imported -- as a success story, noting their presence has dramatically reduced the number of deer-vehicle collisions.

The scientists argue that the Garden State, for instance, could save $2.4 million and avoid 24 injuries caused by deer-vehicle accidents annually. In New York, some $218 million could be saved each year and roughly 2,188 inuries and 16 deaths could be avoided if cougars prowled the land, they estimate.

The authors' methodical approach analyzed certain factors, like starting deer density and final deer density. It also included projections for 17 other states, such as Maine, Missouri, Ohio, South Carolina and Wisconsin.

The idea of reintroducing cougars was roundly criticized Wednesday by one state official in New Jersey.

"It doesn’t have a leg to stand on," Larry Hajna, a spokesman for the state’s Department for Environmental Protection, said of the recommendation.

"We're too densely populated," Hajna told FoxNews.com. "It makes absolutely no sense to introduce a top-line predator with so many people packed into a tight area."

The areas where deer are most problematic, Hajna noted, are places near homes with children and pets.

"I don’t understand the logic whatsoever. Cougars have been known to attack people," he said. "It seems the authors are sitting in an ivory tower out West."

In New Jersey, Hajna urged people to stop feeding the deers' voracious appetites and advocated for greater use of what he called the community-based deer management program, which allows for hunters with specific training qualifications to kill more deer in certain areas.

"It takes some political will on the part of towns to implement this program," he said.

Date:12-Aug-16

I will tell you this based upon our experience with lions here in the Dakotas. They will control the hell out of your herd, there is no disputing that.

By: bb
Date:12-Aug-16

Especially the 220lbers

Date:12-Aug-16

In huntable areas of NJ - deer herds have been decimated by "unlimited antlerless" from September through February, in every season every weapon. We already have a very high density of predators (coyotes and bears). I guess they won't rest until the last deer is gone. Road kills are way down - I doubt it's even much of a statistic, although ironically - I hit one with my Jeep last October 25th, after a morning bow hunt. That was the last doe I saw for about 6 weeks in that particular area.

Date:12-Aug-16

Pat - Agree 100%. It is flat out scary how detached many in our society have become. Rather than allowing urban hunts where hunters could manage the herd and the meat could be donated to worthy causes, lets introduce an alpha predator (that kills humans and pets as well) to take care of it.

These are the people that are horrified by the thought of a poor deer suffering from being shot by an arrow, but have no issues with predators eating the deer while its still alive. Mercy!

--Mitch

By: bb
Date:12-Aug-16

"They say the 220-pound predators are a natural solution to a problem that causes 1.2 milllion car accidents per year, including 200 fatalities."

Makes perfect sense. diversify the targets a bit.

Date:12-Aug-16

I agree Pat......

Date:12-Aug-16

I feel that some of those becoming disconnected from the natural order, are right here on this forum.......

By: tradmt
Date:12-Aug-16

I saw this some time ago. Eventually, stupid will be fixed and millions of lives will be lost.

Date:12-Aug-16

I weigh more than 220# and can control the hell out of a herd with an osage selfbow

Date:12-Aug-16

You guys are more likely to get killed by a damn tick than a lion. Holy cow. Some of these statements sound like they were made by Pat's neighbor lol. Disconnected.....

Date:12-Aug-16

Fantastic idea! What better way to put a dent in the ARA's theory that predators alone can control all ungulate populations everywhere while at the same time thinning out some excess Easterners?

Seriously though, I doubt this would ever get off the ground even if powers-that-be gave it the green light. Lions don't like to live around people. They need room and wide-open spaces. They're naturally afraid of people and avoid them. Reintroduction would fail. While we're at it, why don't we reintroduce elk to downtown New York City.

By: Bigdan
Date:12-Aug-16

Lions would kill lots of deer also lots of dogs and cats I cat kills 100+ deer a year also Elk, Moose any any other animails around Why not a few Grizz They will clean up on all that road kill.

Date:12-Aug-16

Ike, I don't know about elk being introduced to downtown NYC , but I would like to give them a few semi loads of hogs. They could bitch about that for years to come.

By: bb
Date:12-Aug-16

"You guys are more likely to get killed by a damn tick than a lion. Holy cow. Some of these statements sound like they were made by Pat's neighbor lol. Disconnected....."

Defenitely, A tick almost did me in once, had to get a transfusion, tick was blown up like a basketball.

By: Squash
Date:12-Aug-16

the Canadian Lynx introduction in NY's High Peaks area of the Adirondacks was a total disaster . Most of them left the area and got run over on Interstate 87. So yes they should pi$$ away some more taxpayer funds to re introduce Mtn. Lions, It may reduce the spandex clad granola cruncher population in theAdirondak High Peaks, because there are dam few deer there to eat.

Date:12-Aug-16

The north easterners deserve wolves, not mountain lions...

Date:12-Aug-16

When they reach thier quota of lions, I wonder if they continue to protect the cougars untill they become an issue?

By: bb
Date:12-Aug-16

They won't need to protect them, they'll be scraping them off the highways along with the deer.

Date:13-Aug-16

They can have EVERY SINGLE ONE of my mt lions. Maybe they could herd them all thataway on their unicorns.

By: DC
Date:13-Aug-16

While the authors acknowledge "large carnivore recolonization" could lead to attacks on humans, pets and livestock, (the number of lives lost would be far less than the number of lives saved.)

They should proof read or am I really missing the point here?

By: Stoney
Date:14-Aug-16

Give them some wolves too! Maybe a few grizzles.

The radicals want all predators to be re-established and or established to control the ungulates. They want man out of the equation.

By: Matt
Date:14-Aug-16

Lions are not the solution for reducing deer populations in close proximity to people, homes, and pets. This may come off as self-serving, but bowwhunters seem like the best solution.

By: Aubs8
Date:14-Aug-16
Aubs8's Supporting Link

Great idea.....

By: bb
Date:14-Aug-16

"They say the 220-pound predators are a natural solution to a problem that causes 1.2 milllion car accidents per year, including 200 fatalities."

I would be very suspicious of a "scientists" ability to make any recommendation based on his notion that lions are routinely that large. I would be willing to bet you would have to look at a lot of lions for a lot of years before you found one that large.

But on the other hand the general population should feel honored when their kid gets targeted for meal by a lion knowing that it is for the greater good. Like they say...you just can't fix stupid.

The one that managed to make his way to CT from other parts, lasted maybe a week before he was turned into a rug on the Highway.

Date:14-Aug-16

Cougars? Hell, no. Introduce the grizzly bear to the northeast. Those folks need a good dose of reality.

By: r-man
Date:14-Aug-16

I bet people shoot every one they release, dumb ass idea. They forget to tell yea that the county around Princeton is a non firearm area, against the law to use a gun. that's 90% of the accidents, the rest is due to great management of wildlife resources. You can see a ten pointer from the road in NJ any night or day just look. I just got back from there . a 12 and a 10 pointer half mile from hotel.

Date:14-Aug-16

on news today........4 year old girl taken from a family campfire in Idaho by cat that had been hanging around. cat dropper her when family screamed, but at least the deer population out there is under control

By: Fuzzy
Date:15-Aug-16

I've heard there are already lots of cougars in Milwaukee, and many are very large ;)

Date:15-Aug-16
walking buffalo's Supporting Link

The link is to the actual letter submitted to the Conservation Letters magazine. It is worth reading to understand how these people think and the strategies they use.

Their models and results are concluding with a 20% reduction in deer densities.... Of course there is no mention or inclusion of other factor causing changes in deer densities, such a s a hard winter....

I'm not sure if these researchers are anti-hunting, but they certainly are not concerned with the loss of hunting due to the increased population of predators. This is just a cost of their desires.

While this cougar garden may all sound foolish, hunters need to be aware of this changing world of conflicting visions for wildlife management.

Date:17-Aug-16

ILL DNR send me a survey last year on what I thought on putting cougars back in Ill.I filled it out and added my 2 cents

Date:17-Aug-16

If the general public knew the truth about mtn lions this idea wouldn't even be a consideration.

We just got back from NW Nevada 032 which used to be a unit you could see 70 bucks in a day 25 years ago....now you see two. Lion tracks on every trail....heck we dragged the game trail going past our tent and it had a lion track the next morning.

A buddy in Nor Cal had a pet goat killed by a lion on his porch. They cught the lion 400 yds from his house and the Houndsman said not allowed by F&G to take pics of the lion or spread the word. He had killed something like 30 problem lions in that one area in the last 2-3 yrs.

Another buddy with a ranch above Vacaville, Ca just couldn't get traction with their deer herd. Multiple land owners complained and the F&G killed 27 lions in one long canyon up there in one year.

The dirty little secret is these lions are a huge problem [as we already knew] but F&G is keeping it a secret from the general public. Hard for the general public to make an educated decision without all of the info, eh?

Date:17-Aug-16

Dont kid yourself, a few short years ago Michigan DNR introduced mountain lions without the public's knowledge or consent. After having several horses killed and mauled, a few dogs chained to the outside of their dog house killed and half consumed a few country folk did some SSS to get rid of them. As I heard it, at the time the DNR denied the lions existed. If they want lions there they will put them there. bet on it.

By: writer
Date:17-Aug-16

Calling BS on that one, Got....same crap in every state, and never any proof.

Same junk about the tracking chip in the one that was buried or stashed in the freezer.

Never had a biologist tell me they didn't exist in KS, MO, NE, IA, OK,....they said they didn't have any proof until recent years.

Lion biologists in the mountains say if you have lions, it's easy to prove. They also say attacks on full grown cattle and horses are very, very, very rare. Dogs, sheep and goats, however...

Can't imagine any livestock group sitting back and not taking things to court as per introing big cats.

...of course that didn't do any good with wolves out west, though.

Date:04-Sep-16

We had someone report a cougar sighting on Grandpa Ray's Farm last year. There was another recent sighting.

Note i am not much for 2nd hand info or starting rumors but 2 people i tend to trust have reported of cougar releases, the DNA will deny it and until proven otherwise it's just a tale. I have made a couple phone calls to garner more information on cougars and find out how "a long cougar could end up in south central wisconsin and how long might he stay in the era without an other cougars or breeding partners.

None the less cougars are here now for some reason. Maybe someone just is releasing their "pets."

By: Mint
Date:08-Sep-16

About twenty years ago there was a mt lion on long island. They thought it was a pet that escaped or let loose. They would find deer carcasses, tracks and scat but could never catch him. They couldn't run him with dogs because there was small woodlots where he would live. Totally nocturnal. I believe he died of natural causes.

Date:08-Sep-16

T Rex's would eat a lot more. Let's bring them back.

Date:08-Sep-16

I'm confused as to why they aren't also considering more lake trout?

Date:08-Sep-16

If the Cougars weigh 220 then the Grizzlies may weigh 2500lb

By: Ziek
Date:08-Sep-16

"...the Houndsman said not allowed by F&G to take pics of the lion or spread the word."

That's just BS. They can say whatever they want. They have no enforcement authority for such an order.

By: Fuzzy
Date:08-Sep-16

a lot of middle-aged women hunt

Date:08-Sep-16

Fuzzy, they seem to be only after the youngens. I shudder to think of a 220lb Cougar!She do a lot of hunting in dark places.

By: Fuzzy
Date:08-Sep-16

I like em with some grease in the rind. ;)

Date:08-Sep-16

The cluster of units I am hunting has around 7000 mule deer. It was purposely knocked down as an experiment when CWD was a big issue. It was 12000 in the 90s and likely 15000+ in the 60s. They estimate the lion population at 100+ (high estimate is 200+). Figure 40 deer per year, per lion and thats 4000 deer a year. They aren't the cause of the low population but they sure are a hurdle in rebuilding it. I hope they collect the transplants from here.


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