| do not kill alpha does? |
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By:
Jack Harris
Date:20-Jan-16
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Recently I have had some in depth discussions which made me think twice the other night and avoid the two older alpha does that came in and target the younger one. I want a little more meat for my efforts so I never shoot the deer less than 1.5 years old though ... The logic I was presented goes something like this: The older very mature does help protect the herd from all forms of danger - man, predator and weather. She usually bears the most fawns and knows how to keep them safe - their fawn survival rate is higher than younger does. She is a pro when it comes to the rut - and won't run like crazy all the bucks especially mature bucks off your property. Of course I am talking about that alpha doe the one that busts you and stomps and snorts. Hard to pass but I did last chance I had and took a 1.5 year old doe instead. What say you? I am not questioning shooting a doe or not - but targeting the best doe for the benefit of your herd. The expert I spoke with said he would rather take a button buck than an old mature doe and he is rabid QDMA
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By:
Bear Track
Date:20-Jan-16
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I'm a 100% believer in leaving them alone too. They are the brains of the herd with the very best survival skills.
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By:
CAS_HNTR
Date:20-Jan-16
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As I get older and fatter....I take the smallest deer I can take! Haha!
Just kidding!
I have changed my tune on this as well based on what has been stated already.....I don't like shooting super young or super old does. Right in the middle is best in my opinion.
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By:
bowriter
Date:20-Jan-16
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The most expensive deer on your land is the doe fawn. Just think about it and you will see why.
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By:
Zbone
Date:20-Jan-16
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"do not kill alpha does?"
Simple answer for me is "no"...
I strive for both ends of the spectrum, the smallest doe fawn in the area for meat, and the biggest buck in the area... I usually let everything in between walk... Although if freezer is bare near the end of season, desperate times for meat may cause desperate measures... I've actually killed deer the very last day of our long 4-month bowseason, and a couple other times the last week...
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By:
Bowfreak
Date:20-Jan-16
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Not me....I would rather shoot the biggest doe in the area for 2 reasons.....more meat and the biggest challenge.
The fact that they bust me and snort just makes me want to kill them and get them out of my area. Sorry.....I want dumb deer not smart ones. :)
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By:
LINK
Date:20-Jan-16
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I've got two words fawn mignon.
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By:
wild1
Date:20-Jan-16
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I aim for the biggest and oldest does, for three/four reasons:
1. They could quite possible be barren, beyond breeding years anyway.
2. They will (if they haven't already) spook that buck you've been trying to kill for years, and they'll do it at the worst possible time.
3. They will run off any buck(s) that they gave birth too, in order to prevent possible inbreeding. So if a mature doe as been in the area for 5-8 years, they may have birthed quite a few bucks, and those bucks will be driven off the land by the alpha doe that bred them.
4. More venison in a bigger doe.
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By:
Zbone
Date:20-Jan-16
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"They will run off any buck(s) that they gave birth too, in order to prevent possible inbreeding."
Ummmm, fairy tales... They are animals without morals, not people....
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By:
Linecutter
Date:20-Jan-16
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Define Alpha Doe. If the group has a 4.5 and a 3.5 year old in it either one will be just as smart. That 4.5 was 3.5 the year before and it would have still been the Alpha doe in the group then. Now if you are talking Momma and 2 little ones that is something different but then again, those little ones will grow up and be just as smart if Momma is killed. They always do on public land. Maybe public land does are smarter than pivate land does, just sayin. DANNY
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By:
KJC
Date:20-Jan-16
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So all the collective survival knowledge of the species is bestowed upon one female who must be protected at all costs. If she falls so does the precariously balanced whitetail population. Nope, not buyin' it.
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By:
LBshooter
Date:20-Jan-16
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I'm with linecutter on this one. A 2 or 3 yr old who has been with an alpha has been taught her ways of survival and will take the lead if the alpha dies. Just like with dominant bucks, when one dies there are plenty of others who will step up. I hunt heavily hunted public land and the 1.5 yr old does aren't dumb, have been busted by them Plenty of times.
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By:
12yards
Date:20-Jan-16
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Does alpha doe automatically equate to smartest doe? Or best equipped to survive? I don't know. She might be the biggest bully or the dominant doe in the area, but maybe she isn't the smartest. I think individual deer have different personalities, both bucks and does. Doesn't necessarily equate to smarter. I rarely see more than one doe at a time and don't see many even in a season in MN. How do I know if she is an alpha or "supersmartsurvivordoe". I shoot does if I think there are enough deer in my area. If not, they all get a pass.
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By:
drycreek
Date:20-Jan-16
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I normally try to take the biggest doe with no fawns following if I can. As has been stated, more meat, more meat, more meat ! Besides, where do you think alpha does come from ? They weren't born five years old.
Sorry Zbone, but does will kick off ANY fawn when she's ready to breed, and the buck fawn usually becomes a wanderer until he finds his niche. This has been proven by people way smarter than me, but even I have noticed it. That's why you never shoot a " doe " that wanders in alone in late season until you scrutinize her head well, because she just may be a he.
I, too, believe deer have personalities, otherwise you would never see a five year old buck in the daylight outside of the rut.
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By:
Fuzzy
Date:20-Jan-16
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they make good burger
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By:
Charlie Rehor
Date:20-Jan-16
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With the over all decline in deer numbers the last 5 years I only shoot does on managed ground where there is still a need to lower buck to doe ratio for an intense rut.
Fawns of killed does will likely stay on the property and many folks think they grow up to be the wisest. If I'm going to shoot does I shoot does without trying to figure out what roll a doe plays in the herd. That said I must admit killing a mature doe is the most satisfying. The oldest does we've shot over the years (mid-teens by cementum annuli aging) were never that big bodied. Most of the giant bodied does were 4.5 to 6.5 but gradually went down in weight after that.
From the QDMA fetus aging chart this year we determined our early January killed does were bred between 10/31 and 11/17. Even with a smoking hot rut the breeding is somewhat spread out.
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By:
Zbone
Date:20-Jan-16
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drycreek - I will wager my paycheck, you isolate a doe and her button buck or an island or enclosure or whatever, there will be a new fawn born the following spring...
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By:
LKH
Date:20-Jan-16
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I don't shoot fawns for two reasons. One is that it can be difficult to identify sex. I don't hunt much out of trees and seeing the fawn buck nubs can be difficult.
The other is that fawns have too mild a flavor. I actually like the flavor of older bucks better than fawns.
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By:
willliamtell
Date:20-Jan-16
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If you have a small property, the smart old does will lead the bucks right off the place. They don't like seeing Valentino get shot off from under (well, on top of) them. We can't hunt them where I live, but there are plenty of deer, and if I could I'd dumb down the herd some.
I'll throw a curveball into this discussion - which does produce the big antlered bucks? Pretty hard to tell without ear tags. But much like racehorses, where sometimes the good genes go through the dam. You don't know which doe has her half of the genetics to produce the wallhangers most of us are after.
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By:
deerman406
Date:20-Jan-16
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I only shoot doe fawns. I figure if you shoot anything older than that you are killing 3 deer. The deer herself plus the 2 fawns she would of had in the spring. As much as I hear about guys seeing fewer deer, I laugh when the same guys say, well I had a big doe come in with 2 fawns and I just could not shoot the fawns so I killed the old doe. Wonder why they are seeing so few deer? Shawn
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By:
Dave B
Date:20-Jan-16
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agreed Shawn, I'll take a doe fawn every time if the shot presents itself. Also big horse headed does. But I am lucky to hunt spots where I am able to shoot does and not worry about seeing deer next year.
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By:
drycreek
Date:20-Jan-16
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Zbone, I agree, but.....I don't hunt on an island ! My son used to hunt an island in the middle of Richland-Chambers lake and it was populated with the most screwed up antler genetics I ever saw. Poor antlered bucks and plenty of them. I personally think the poor antlers came from too many deer and....wait for it.....inbreeding ! That's not the natural order of wild animals.
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By:
AH
Date:20-Jan-16
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"To date, research has identified two factors that influence the sex ratio of whitetail fawns, doe age and time of breeding relative to onset of estrus (heat). Research by DeGayner and Jordan in Minnesota revealed that does 4.5 years of age and younger produced proportionally more male fawns while those older than 4.5 produced more female fawns (see Figure 1). Comparing extremes, 1.5-year-old does produced approximately 70 percent male fawns while 9.5+-year-old does produced only 30 percent male fawns."
Why I always thought it was better to shoot old does.
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By:
AH
Date:20-Jan-16
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Also interesting reading on the subject.
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By:
Zbone
Date:20-Jan-16
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drycreek - You're missing the point, inbreeding does happens in nature, especially if animals are isolated by geographical reasons or whatever... You guys are saying momma runs baby off, not so - daddy runs baby off (seen it first hand) and if daddy or daddies ain't around, baby does the deed... Although this depletes the health of the species, (heard cheetas unhealthy welfare is due to generations of inbreeding) but this still insures the survival of the species at least one more generation...
BTW - Ever heard of line breeding in pets and livestock...
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By:
ironhunter
Date:20-Jan-16
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Shoot old/alpha does when you can. They are the smartest deer in the woods and other deer learn and follow there cues,this makes all the deer harder to hunt ,then they take the best habitat for themselves and their young. If your trying to build the herd that`s great,however if you want bucks around at times besides the rut remove the old does. Adult bucks will be forced to the lesser quality habitat that may not offer as much quality food and cover and may be well out of your hunting area.
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By:
Jack Harris
Date:20-Jan-16
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thank you all for the feedback. I always enjoyed taking out the oldest wisest doe I could every winter, post rut. This time I did not although for the spot I was hunting, I had two of them. I am not 100% convinced either way on this matter. I see logic from all angles, I think at the end of the day, those of us that hunt a lot, and know our herd know the right thing to do at the moment of truth. We are all stewards of the game we seek, from whitetails to Caribou and everything in between.
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By:
Sapcut
Date:20-Jan-16
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"The expert I spoke with said he would rather take a button buck than an old mature doe and he is rabid QDMA"
As a consulting biologist myself, that is totally absurd.
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By:
Ironbow
Date:20-Jan-16
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I keep hearing about old, barren does. From what I read that doesn't happen. Does continue to breed and give birth as long as they live. They are not like humans.
By the time they can no longer have fawns, they are pretty much used up and won't live much longer anyway.
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By:
Genesis
Date:20-Jan-16
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I will shoot mature does......
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By:
GF
Date:20-Jan-16
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JMO, if the objective is herd reduction, the best ones to take are the 2.5s. My rationale is that they have reached an age and size where they are able to raise twins, and they still have a lot of good, productive breeding seasons ahead of them. So that's the biggest bang for the buck.
If the objective is to increase the size of the herd, the best option is to take a fawn. A buck fawn, if you can. Rationale here is that Val Geist said so!
But seriously-
In a demanding environment, fawns have about a 50% survival rate. And buck fawns have higher mortality at 1.5 years because they get kicked off of Momma's place and many are killed during dispersal. So if you kill a button on a moderately sized property, there's a very good chance that you would never have seen him again anyway...
If you want to increase your numbers of bucks, let the buttons walk and shoot their dams.... They don't get R U N N O F T that way, so survivorship is much greater.
And if you want a challenge, yeah... An old Bossy doe can be a tough challenge. And don't worry; it's a virtual slam dunk that she'll have offspring sharing her territory, and they'll get along just fine.
I do prefer a dry doe over one with fawns just because she'll be in better condition than one that's been nursing twins or triplets all summer.
But this year, I've got a couple more days I can work with, and if it's brown, it's down. We've got plenty of deer here, and enough hunting pressure that any buck over 1.5 is a pretty good one. And the herd is MUCH better off with me taking 1 young buck and a doe than 2 older bucks.
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By:
wifishkiller
Date:21-Jan-16
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Young ones here, or any doe that violates the to smart for their own good rules. Excessive smelling, looking up, snorting, ext. will get them on the list of "fair game". only thing that changes this, is the population.
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By:
meatus
Date:21-Jan-16
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What is considered the Alpha Doe? Oldest? Biggest? Please define...Thanks
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By:
Jack Harris
Date:21-Jan-16
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Define alpha doe as the one they all follow. They are pretty obvious
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By:
MDW
Date:21-Jan-16
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Normally I don't shoot Does, But; had one group of what I figured was a grandma, mother and two fawns showing regularly. Grandma would always run to the downwind side of field to sniff things out. If she smelt anything, away they went, if she didn't smell anything, they started feeding.
I could be in a stand on the field edge, or 1/4 mile away, it didn't make a difference in her routine.
januarary Doe season, I took her out for dinner! So far none of the survivers have exhibited that routine!
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By:
Bernie1
Date:21-Jan-16
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I will only take big alpha or large does and bucks.
Shooting young deer seems mean to me, let them live a little.
Older deer provide more meat.
They are more of a challenge to kill.
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By:
kentuckbowhnter
Date:21-Jan-16
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alpha does go good with alpha biscuits and alpha gravy.
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By:
kentuckbowhnter
Date:21-Jan-16
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alpha does go good with alpha biscuits and alpha gravy.
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By:
12yards
Date:21-Jan-16
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So you should shoot all the button bucks because they are going to be the neighbor's bucks and we don't want the neighbors shooting any nice bucks???
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Date:21-Jan-16
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Fairly difficult to kill a matriarch doe. I don't believe one can kill enough of them to affect the health of the herd. I finally killed a matriarch on my farm I have been after for 2 years. Two nights later the same group was out eating in the same area without her, the next biggest doe appeared to have taken her role.
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By:
Zbone
Date:21-Jan-16
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Bighurt - Think about what you just said - "one doe pushed its yearling 11 miles away"...
First off a "Yearling" is a deer between the age of 1 year and 2 years old... Before their first birthday, they are still fawns...
A doe is not going to chase another deer, any deer, regardless of sex or age, 11 miles...
The buck fawn leaves on his own, its called male dispersion and happens frequently in nature...
The best study I read was by the PA Game Commission a few years back where they captured (don't quote me on the exact numbers) and radio collared something like 50 or so button bucks during late winter, and about 60% dispersed the following year to new lands and they gave the stats of how far they dispersed, and remember one that sticks in my head that set up new homeland 26 miles away... The other 40% stayed within a mile or two of where they were captured... Might be able to find that study online...
Male dispersment is natures way of minimizing inbreeding...
Ironbow - "I keep hearing about old, barren does. From what I read that doesn't happen. Does continue to breed and give birth as long as they live. They are not like humans. By the time they can no longer have fawns, they are pretty much used up and won't live much longer anyway."
Good post, and totally agree... Have a backyard crippled doe that I know is at least 10 years old and still producing fawns...
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By:
Fuzz
Date:21-Jan-16
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Tried shooting her... but the Rage bounced off her cage...... Next I tried the Copper Solid.....she giggled......then the Howitzer....she chuckled.....then the M1-Abrams.... but she kept on ticking!
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By:
12yards
Date:21-Jan-16
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Zbone, they should have mounted gopros on the back of those male fawns so they could see the alpha does chasing them away for miles! LOL.
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By:
meatus
Date:21-Jan-16
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So for instance I had a group of 3 does come in after Pa's gun season was over, it was during the late Flintlock season, Big Momma, a medium sized doe and a little one. Big Momma stood about 40yds away and just stared in my direction, and the little guy just kept feeding around her while the medium doe kept coming in to within 10yds blow at me and run off at least 5 times never presenting a shot which at the time I was using my bow not Flinter. Who would be considered the Alpha in this group? Big Momma or the medium doe who kept investigating and blowing? This was on a Gamelands that gets hammered by gun hunters the first few days and all I hear is no deer, no deer but after the first two days of gun and everyone goes back to work the deer return, I passed up over 10 Bucks on this SGL this year alone. It butts up against my back yard so I hunt is frequently and see more there then the average joe who hunts it.
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By:
Zbone
Date:21-Jan-16
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12yards - Too funny...8^)))
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Date:21-Jan-16
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Meatus, I think the doe that stayed back is the leader. My experience, matriarchs are as elusive most times as mature bucks. You see them less because if one of their senses tells them something is not right, they don't hang around to investigate.
I also believe they are wise enough to let a subordinate investigate while they remain a safe distance back.
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By:
wild1
Date:21-Jan-16
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Zbone -
I try not to "school" anyone on a public forum, I consider it distasteful. However, in this case, an exception must be made.
First, of course a deer will, at times, inbreed if they're isolated - I never read where the OP was hunting on an island.
Secondly, I'm fairly certain we all know that animals don't adhere to human morals, but thanks for the valuable insight - it was a gem.
Lastly, maybe, just maybe, avoiding inbreeding has something to do with nature's way of maintaining a healthy herd.
Carry on.
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By:
Sage Buffalo
Date:21-Jan-16
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Interesting thread.
IMO It doesn't make a difference whatsoever - weather and disease are the regulators in the WT world.
If your theory were correct WT would have been in trouble years ago.
Like any other animal you take out the lead doe another will fill the role.
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By:
Zbone
Date:21-Jan-16
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wild1 - Dude, taste all ya like, but hey I call'm as I see'm and was only trying to educate the uneducated... Guess there's always one of your kind in the class...
BTW, used an island as a metaphor for isolation, notice I also mentioned "enclosure" and "whatever".... Geez... I'm done, class dismissed...
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By:
GF
Date:21-Jan-16
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"So you should shoot all the button bucks because they are going to be the neighbor's bucks and we don't want the neighbors shooting any nice bucks???"
I'm going to assume that this was directed at me, and.... No. As in "don't be stupid".
The point was not that we "should shoot all the button bucks" as if they were vermin; the point was/is that shooting a button does the absolute LEAST in terms of reducing the population in an area, because:
A) there's only a 50% chance of survival for it in the first place, so half the time the hunter only determines WHEN/HOW that button will die, rather than WHETHER
B) even if it does survive, it won't be sticking around anyway (unless its dam gets killed)
C)by choosing a button over a doe fawn... there's a chance that she will survive and drop a fawn of her own come spring, plus the reproductive output for the rest of her years. Females don't disperse the way males do, so she and all of her doe fawns will be there for generations. And it only takes one buck dispersing from the neighbors' place to service the lot of 'em....
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By:
1boonr
Date:21-Jan-16
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what a bunch of crap, how did a doe chase her yearling buck 11 miles, and get him to stay? I thought the average home range was less than a mile so why would she run him that far? if I don't shoot does then my bucks get run off and pile in to the areas where does are being shot. I sure hope some of the other guys bucks come around to breed all the does that i'm not shooting!
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By:
Sapcut
Date:21-Jan-16
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"C)by choosing a button over a doe fawn... there's a chance that she will survive and drop a fawn of her own come spring, plus the reproductive output for the rest of her years."
O I see, so kill the buck "in hand" in hopes the doe fawn will drop a button buck of her own?.....then kill it and continue this insane cycle of depleting the buck population? Yea that's how you do it.
How bout this, never ever intentionally take out a male deer less than 3.5 years old at the youngest. Then based on the population numbers take does.
Naturally, a deer population tends to have less bucks due to natural mortality. Don't help out the situation until they're ripe for the pickin. That way you'll always have at least two or three age groups recruiting behind that 3-4 year age class.
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By:
Sapcut
Date:21-Jan-16
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By:
greenmountain
Date:21-Jan-16
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Cars and coyotes don't discriminate. We as hunters should not let emotion guide our decisions. A yearling doe is more likely to have a single fawn than an older doe. Fawns are more likely to die than older deer. Bucks are more likely to die in the winter than does. All are facts and all are generalizations. My point is there is no right or wrong answer to this question. Much on what you choose to do should be based on the habitat conditions where you hunt.
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By:
IdyllwildArcher
Date:21-Jan-16
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NASA should really spend as much time analyzing space craft and astrophysics as whitetail hunters do analyzing whitetails and whitetail hunting.
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By:
Grunt-N-Gobble
Date:21-Jan-16
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I always try to shoot a mature doe, regardless of age. I don't hunt a large enough property for it to make any difference and I'm confident that the guys hunting the adjacent properties aren't being picky either.
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By:
Genesis
Date:22-Jan-16
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I bet an "Alpha Doe Blend" seed product and mineral block is just around the corner.I bet someone will buy it and I bet half of those someones will say it's making a difference......
Long Live the Queen!
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By:
meatus
Date:22-Jan-16
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Sorry but I've been reading this thread and trying to agree with this mindset but I'm not buying it. I also hear there is a bridge in Alaska for sale, any takers??
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By:
Jack Harris
Date:22-Jan-16
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The two aspects I can find logic with, are that the most experienced doe makes the best protective mother to the fawns, can better lead the herd to safety from all forms of predators, and probably won't run all over creation come rut and help keep mature bucks in your area...
That doesn't mean the next year class younger are stupid either and haven't learned...
I think it's a discipline that might make sense if you control a very large tract of land, but that being said, I too prefer the oldest most mature animal available regardless of sex...
It was definitely a good read, seeing all the opinions on this.
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By:
loprofile
Date:22-Jan-16
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After watching the movie "No Country for Old Men" I started using the coin flip method. Heads she lives, tails not.
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By:
12yards
Date:22-Jan-16
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Genesis, I was thinking of marketing the Alpha-Doezonics. This machine will totally mask your scent from all alpha does. Won't help with that dang Alpha that scans the treetops though. Those are the worst! Maybe Bill Jordan can figure out some sort of Realtree Alpha Doe camo.
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By:
12yards
Date:22-Jan-16
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I'm really sorry I'm making light of this. I just can't help myself. No hatred intended. I'm sure this is something folks that manage a bigger chunk of land actually could deal with.
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By:
willliamtell
Date:22-Jan-16
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I figure each of us is at least 50% correct, the problem is we don't know which. Whatever Val Geist says sounds pretty good to me. 12yards, maybe Bill should blend in some blue sky for "treetop camo"
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By:
Jack Harris
Date:22-Jan-16
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I found the alpha doe form for those interested.
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By:
12yards
Date:22-Jan-16
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Yup! The long nose gives it away for sure.
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By:
Tracker12
Date:22-Jan-16
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Alpha doe will burn you more than and other deer in the woods. Early in the season I take them when I get the chance. Late season I shoot the ones I want to eat most and that means same year deer. I hunt urban areas and have no lack of deer.
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By:
Genesis
Date:22-Jan-16
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I'm not saying that "deer management" isn't possible with a stick and string but I'm saying I (and all the other other club bowhunters) couldn't do it in 15 years in Mississippi.
I know some great large tracts of land (including ours but double our size) couldn't either.
I know a zillion of bowhunters that think they are but most of the time it's just extrinsic factors affected herd numbers.We as bowhunters sleep better thinking our 4-5 does have really mattered on our property,but that's ok too.
Simply put....gun control.I wasn't willing to go that route to move the body weights and the big buck needle so I started hunting the Midwest.Much better gender ratios,body weights and social behavior just from the drive
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By:
bowriter
Date:23-Jan-16
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Before you decide what you need to shoot, you must first define your goals. Herd management is not the same if you want to increase population as it is for balancing a sex or age strata. But first, you have know what you have. Historically, hunters have been terrible at getting an accurate deer census because they base their figures on just what they see while hunting. Here is a prime example:
On five straight hunts, a hunter sees nine does and two bucks. Usually, he is quick to assume he has too many does and too few bucks. In fact, that may not be the case at all.
In plain, general terms, if you are going to kill does, the best does NOT TO KILL are the middle age strata-2.5-5.5. Leave them alone and work on either end. Obviously, if you are trying to increase the total population, you kill no does.
Just as logically, if you are trying to balance your sex ratio, you would increase doe kill and decrease buck kill. That is just common sense. It must, at some point, dawn on hunters that if they are going to effectively manage a deer herd, they may have to end up with an unused tag and not kill anything.
The average fall range of a mature whitetail buck is just over 900-acres. However, he will, except for the rut, spend most of his time in just over 100-acres. It is my opinion, alpha does have little or no impact on the movement of a mature buck except to attract them when they, they alpha doe, come into heat early as they often do.
Long and short of it. If you have plenty of deer, shoot whatever you want. If you have few deer, use your head and be selective. Unless you have a good size chunk of land to manage, you are not going to be able to manage your deer herd anyway.
If you base your decision on amount or quality of meat, then you are not concerned with deer management. With my deer population, that is exactly my mindset. I am looking for the young, tender, easy to drag deer and I don't care what sex it is.
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By:
Buck-man
Date:23-Jan-16
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shooting a mature doe is usually my goal. But family n friends will shoot does of all sizes throughout the season here in Illinois. the yearling fawns tend to stick around which is cool. Next season their is always mature does walking around again. seen it the last 6 years at my place .
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By:
roger
Date:23-Jan-16
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Probably a lot comes to mind here, but what it boils down to for me are two things. 1.) "Other people's logic", which is rarely if ever well thought out and certainly lacking in real science, but well intentioned, nonetheless. 2.) Putting mental hurdles in your way that do nothing but over-complicate things and prevent you from enjoying the experience to the fullest.
State's game management agencies do a far better job at realizing the deer's needs and implementing policies that positively affect them, than do us pseudo scientists with our ill-conceived "Parcel Management Strategies" that do absolutely nothing.
You know, the more that I think about it there is also a 3rd problem here, which is kinda related to #2("mental hurdles"). It's that so many discount hunting the doe as merely, "meat for the freezer", as opposed to buck hunting, which is certainly more about self glorification via antler envy, scores and money shot type selfies, and so on. If you let yourself just enjoy doe hunting the same way you do buck hunting, then it will all just blend together in to actual "deer hunting". Sounds crazy I suppose, but for some of us it works quite well.
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By:
DanaC
Date:23-Jan-16
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If you *can* kill a mature doe, you've taken a trophy the equal of most bucks. Don't sweat it, even the 'average' doe is way more alert and woods-wise than you'll ever be.
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By:
roger
Date:23-Jan-16
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Dana, I concur. But, for some, if the deer doesn't have record quality antlers it's just not a deer kill really.
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By:
Jack Harris
Date:23-Jan-16
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Well said Roger...
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By:
1boonr
Date:23-Jan-16
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DanaC. I would agree with the thought of a mature doe being equal to most bucks if there were as many mature bucks as does. I have many encounters with mature does throughout the season but have few with mature bucks so the only way this could happen would be the does are not as smart or there are a lot more of them, I believe it to be the latter.
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By:
Rayzor
Date:23-Jan-16
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I used to always try and kill the ones that ruined my hunts whenever they presented the opportunity. Now I won't kill does in late season period unless I'm somewhere where the landowner specifically asked me to. I figure they're likely pregnant and may just be carrying a couple of the next generation of trophy bucks.
I prefer to kill does before the rut and shoot the ones that don't have this year's fawns with them. I've passed several alpha does but honestly I'd have to say its more about me waiting for a big buck than it was me giving them the pass for being the alpha..
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By:
Sapcut
Date:23-Jan-16
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"Now I won't kill does in late season period....I figure they're likely pregnant and may just be carrying a couple of the next generation of trophy bucks."
Doesn't really matter when you kill them does it? Its the same result whether you kill them before or after they're pregnant. They are not gonna have fawns either way.
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By:
roger
Date:23-Jan-16
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Curiously then, Rayzor, what is the difference in shooting a doe before or after the rut, given the fact neither will give birth regardless of pregnancy status?
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By:
roger
Date:23-Jan-16
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And I'm really sorry to hear about all those does showing up and ruining your deer hunting. That's just terrible.
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By:
wifishkiller
Date:23-Jan-16
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Rayzor, that how we started out "list" lol "any doe that violates the to smart for their own good rules. Excessive smelling, looking up, snorting, ext. will get them on the list"
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By:
1boonr
Date:23-Jan-16
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i would never kill a doe that "ruins' hunts because she is also keeping mature bucks alive everywhere else "ruining" other guys hunts.
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By:
Rayzor
Date:24-Jan-16
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I should rephrase the ruins the hunt thing. I'd rather have a doe come in and blow at me, than have no action at all. No doubt about that. Really just glad to be in the woods for a hunt instead of on the road for work as what consumes most of my time through the year. Yes, I get bummed if one busts me or if I see nothing at all. About all I can think of is that I could have spent the same time reducing a few things I have on my "need to do" list. If you don't have that problem, count your blessings. Lots of people do.
As far as the before or after the rut thing goes. My opinion, my opportunity, my choice. Your opinion, your apportunity, your choice. Differnece is if I don't agree with your opinion, I won't beat you up over it. I have no problem acknowledging what right for me may not be right for you. Afterall, although we may not agree, its your hunt, not mine. I'm just glad you're not an anti.
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By:
WV Mountaineer
Date:24-Jan-16
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I wish I had the time, and areas to be so choosy. I shoot the first doe I can when I'm doe hunting.
Everyone is concerned with the decline in deer numbers. Manage your timber. Give them a place to hide. The deer populations in this country exploded due to vast amount of uneven aged, disturbed forests. We are simply seeing a decline in carrying capacity and an increase in fawn mortality due to depredation. If you give them good habitat, the numbers will increase. God Bless men
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By:
roger
Date:24-Jan-16
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Rayzor, I appreciate all that, but it still doesn't answer my question.
If you shoot a doe prior to being bred then she will not give birth. If you shoot a doe after she is bred then she still won't have any offspring, obviously. Just to clear some things up, however, that's not an "opinion", it's an indisputable fact.
I don't think anyone's "beating you up" over an opinion, rather we're merely asking for clarification in your statement, that's all. Of course, it's certainly your right not to answer.
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By:
deerman406
Date:24-Jan-16
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Z-bone you are incorrect about the does not chasing their male fawns away. The reason they disperse is they are harrassed by the alpha doe to the point they do disperse. They are not chased miles away but they are kept out of that doe's groups breeding and fawning grounds.That is Natures way of preventing inbreeding. As fawns the buck competing for breeding rights chases the fawns off, they return as soon as the deed is done. Button bucks are not allowed to bred within their family group rarely ever, they do their breeding once they disperse normally at 1.5 years old or so. Lots of studies to prove this, just do some searches. Shawn
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By:
Zbone
Date:24-Jan-16
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"The reason they disperse is they are harrassed by the alpha doe to the point they do disperse."....
Aaaaaah, somebody's gonna have to prove that to me before I'LL believe it....
Saying the area's alpha doe is going around chasing away her sister's, aunt's, cousin's, etc., button bucks out of the territory is pure fantasy...
If the case, then all would be made to disperse, not 60 - 40 the study showed...
A "mother" doe, not necessarily alpha may likely chase from her immediate area or loose her last year's offspring (be it doe or button) or any other deer around for that matter as she approaches fawning again, but that's nature and just common sense, not Bambi and Disneyland... (sorry, couldn't help myself...8^))
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By:
Sapcut
Date:24-Jan-16
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WV...I hear you about habitat management. In Alabama the deer exploded due to timber tree farming with vast clearcuts. Also, at the same time the coyotes were nonexistent until the vast clearcutting. Then they increased exponentially.
The same great deer habitat was also great rabbit and critter habitat for coyotes. Since then we are realizing the effects on deer mortality due to coyotes. This wouldn't really be a problem except for two reasons....The clearcutting was enormous across the state all at once. And the reproduction of coyotes happened with no predators to balance their population.
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By:
WV Mountaineer
Date:24-Jan-16
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No doubt as deer numbers grow, so will predator numbers. But, with reproduction peaked, and estimates of 55 to 70% of the doe herd needing killed to hold the population at the same levels, deer in good habitat will out produce this mortality. God Bless
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By:
Rayzor
Date:25-Jan-16
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I have no problem answering it. If I shoot a doe before the rut i know she's not carrying the bucks of tomorrow. If she's not there in the rut, that breeding buck has one less doe to chose from and has to look a little harder. That may help bring him past my stand. My friends disagree and say they don't want to shoot the buck bait. We disagree. Of course if my friends haven't killed an animal in the first couple weeks they start getting itchy trigger fingers. They will end up shooting does just as the rut is coming in and have even shot does only to have a buck show a few seconds after their shot. Then they try fill remaining doe tags late, when I won't shoot them, in a last ditch effort to fill their tags before the season goes out. We always check them to see what they are carrying. They typically have two and occasionally even 3 in them. Drives me crazy but its not my land so they can do what they want.
Me, I hunted over 140 hours in 5 states with my bow this year. I had opportunities at numerous does, several 110s and 120s bucks, and one in the mid 130s. I chose not to shoot any of them. I did kill a buck we had on our place that was on our "kill to help genetics" list while sitting a on a field with a my bow and also carrying a rifle for that exact purpose. Some may not agree with me carrying a rifle and a bow. but thats fine. It was a the first time ever my friend, and I doubled in the same morning in the 22 years we've been hunting together and his pre-teen son killed one later the same day making making it the only triple ever in our group. It was a great day.
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By:
bowriter
Date:25-Jan-16
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I love the term, "kill to help genetics". However, I have yet to find anyone, including biologists, who can defend that term. I haveheard plenty of explanations but no defense. I know exactly what a person means when they say that. But I know of not a single one who can, in an unfenced environment, prove that it is a viable practice.
In a fenced, managed herd, where the exact breeding and conception information, (know for certain whichbuck bred which doe), there can be culling to help the genetics. It cannot be proven to my satisfaction that simply killing a buck based on the killer's idea of antler perfection, in a wild environment, accomplishes "helping the genetics".
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By:
Genesis
Date:25-Jan-16
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"In a fenced, managed herd, where the exact breeding and conception information, (know for certain whichbuck bred which doe), there can be culling to help the genetics. It cannot be proven to my satisfaction that simply killing a buck based on the killer's idea of antler perfection, in a wild environment, accomplishes "helping the genetics".
And to add to that,studies show "high grading" occurred on free range public land that had a 4 point a side rule and other superior antler characteristics.Meaning most of the best genetics were being targeted at 2.5/3.5.
Lastly,"cull" bucks are mostly late drops that haven't lived the 3 years yet to make up the difference in time.
So,unlike Flip Wilson ....what you see isn't always what you get...
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By:
1boonr
Date:25-Jan-16
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management buck is usually whatever buck the guy can manage to shoot! mostly just an excuse to kill a small or low scoring buck. If you have to make up some excuse to kill a buck it probably shouldn't be killed. the doe makes up more than half of the desirable genetics, if your really concerned about genetics you probably shouldn't shoot does at all.
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By:
Sapcut
Date:25-Jan-16
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Exactly right. No such possibility to genetically manage a deer herd by buck or doe visual selection. Just another way to justify being able to tell a fellow bowsiter that they killed a buck.
No such animal as a cull buck. A cull hunter maybe but not a cull buck.
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By:
Pintail
Date:25-Jan-16
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I only take a couple of deer each year. When the opportunity presents itself, I take the largest one of the group depending on the tag or tags on hand. Micro management is the first ingredient in tag soup. LOL
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By:
drycreek
Date:25-Jan-16
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I generally agree with the " genetics " thing, but let me pose this question.
If you saw this buck, with this antler configuration, two years in a row, what would you call him ?
I'll give you my answer in advance. I call him a mature buck, with a goofy rack and no understanding of what caused it. I've watched him all year, from just nubs on his head, to most of his left beam points knocked off in Dec. I can't shoot him because of antler restrictions in our county. But,.......I have yet to see what he will be this year. If he's like this again, I'm gonna corner the Warden and ask him why I can't shoot an obviously mature buck when the ARs are put in place to protect 1.5/2.5 year old bucks. I probably know what his answer will be.
I know we were talking about does Jack. Sorry for the hijack.
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By:
12yards
Date:25-Jan-16
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drycreek I don't think it is genetic. Looks like damage either to the antler or the pedicle. Why can't you shoot it. Most APR are 4 on a side type. Are yours different?
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By:
meatus
Date:25-Jan-16
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It's been proven that spikes aren't always spikes and can grow some respectable antlers. But many will "cull" these inferior bucks for the betterment of the herd, a herd that they the hunter have no control over in a true fair chase situation, especially on a SGL. The one's with total control are the high fenced operations where Dr. Moreau plays gene pool roulette. If you want a doe, shoot a doe regardless of time of year, when you start passing on does because of "what if's" it might be time to find another thing to occupy your time, we aren't God and shouldn't attempt to do his work. That same doe that has twins or triplets in her in Dec/Jan can get hit by a car fall in a ditch and go to waste or feed me and my family for the year. I've never and never will feel sick to my stomach because a friend of mine or his kids took a doe later in the year because she was pregnant, that's just an elitist view and not someone I want to hunt with and make memories with. Hunting from a High Horse has no place in the woods, please come down and join the rest of us, it's not bad down here.
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By:
Jack Harris
Date:25-Jan-16
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"If you saw this buck, with this antler configuration, two years in a row, what would you call him ? "
I would call him "probably injured in a rear leg"...
Just like my beloved "tripod"...
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By:
drycreek
Date:25-Jan-16
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12yards- I can't shoot him because our bucks must have a 13" inside spread or an unbranched antler on one side. He has a long point on the right that's not seen in that pic.
Jack- I don't know what makes his antler like that, may be an injury, but it's not apparent. I hope he's not that way this year, because he is mature, a homebody, and moves about in the daytime. I think even I could put his fat carcass in my freezer ! :)
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By:
deerman406
Date:25-Jan-16
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z-bone her sisters, aunts, female cousins all stay within the family group. Come on, you should know that. Do not have to prove anything, just read the hundreds of papers on the subject. It is not the only reason the young bucks disperse but it is one of them. This helps to insure the gene pool stays fairly unpolluted. Shawn
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By:
bowriter
Date:26-Jan-16
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Let me correctly define "cull buck", for you.(1) It is a buck, by which the landowner/manager can derive some monetary gain while not charging full price. (2) It is a buck of which the killer can justify his desire to kill it.
In college, I hated genetics. Did okay gradewise but hated the class. In my later years, I find it funny so many hunters who never took genetics or really understand how it works, have suddenly become expert at judging genetic impact by one animal.
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By:
PAbowhunter1064
Date:26-Jan-16
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You want to know the BIGGEST reason to never, ever shoot an alpha doe? This short video shows me all I need to know...
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By:
GotBowAz
Date:26-Jan-16
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PAbowhunter, Bambi!! OMG that's hilarious!
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By:
WV Mountaineer
Date:26-Jan-16
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PA, that was hilarious.
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By:
tobywon
Date:26-Jan-16
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bowriter, you forgot one....(3) hunter can justify taking a smaller buck so he is not ridiculed by his horn porn egotistical peers....lol
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By:
Zbone
Date:26-Jan-16
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Dudeist - Good post, I totally agree...
deerman406 - I'm not the one, you are the one claiming the "alpha" doe does all the family displacement... You may want to go back and reread, rethink your words...
"Z-bone you are incorrect about the does not chasing their male fawns away. The reason they disperse is they are harrassed by the alpha doe to the point they do disperse. They are not chased miles away but they are kept out of that doe's groups breeding and fawning grounds."
And by the way, been studying and chasing these critters a long time and first time I ever heard of whitetail deer fawning grounds... I need to locate those locations...8^)
PAbowhunter1064 - You shouldn't link things like that, have enough trouble convincing deerman406 Disney ain't real...8^)
Hey, had to ban my kids from Disney when they were little when Lion King first came out after a fishing trip when we brought fish home to clean and I was made to return a catfish with eggs... Didn't want to argue with their mother over it...8^)
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By:
wild1
Date:26-Jan-16
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deerman406 -
People who can read will agree with you.
You can't educate, or even discuss, issues with someone who refuses to learn.
An open mind, leaves at least the possibility, of something worthwhile to drop into it. Disney and fairy tales not withstanding, you can tell who has a closed mind.
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By:
md5252
Date:26-Jan-16
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There some smart people on the Internet with some useful relevant info.
Unfortunately, there's more stupid people. A whole lot more...
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By:
Zbone
Date:26-Jan-16
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People that believe the matriarch alpha doe runs and chases her related family female members year old bucks from their territory for miles so the don't inbreed need to spend more time afield rather than behind a TV... Its not about keeping an open mind, its about logic and freak'n common sense...
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By:
wild1
Date:26-Jan-16
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Zbone -
I don't watch TV, I never said anything gets chase miles away, and lastly, it's about science.
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By:
Zbone
Date:26-Jan-16
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Show me scientific material a whitetail "matriarch alpha doe runs and chases her related family female members year old bucks from their territory" then I'll shut up. Sorry to be so blunt but have always been right to the point, practical without BS... It's a character flaw...8^)
Myths and legends confused me terrible as a youngster chasing these critters until I finally became of age to separated the BS... Just trying to inform the next generation not to believe everything they hear...
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By:
bowriter
Date:26-Jan-16
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Well, let's just tell it like it is.
Hunters, hunting in an open environment situation, especially bowhunters, are not going to do one single solitary dam thing to alter the genetic makeup of the deer herd if they obey the game laws.
Bottom line, shoot whatever you want. You are not going to help or hurt the genetic quality of your deer. Unless the deer you hunt are in a high fence small area, you can be as selective as you want or as liberal as you want and you will have no impact on your deer herd.
And here is a gem for you to cogitate. I'm paraphrasing a comment from an earlier post. "The buck will seek out the first doe to come into heat. Therefore, the more does I have, the more bucks will be around.." or something to that affect.
Only partialy true. In a herd of many does, the bucks do little or no seeking out. They don't have to. The does find them and you will often have a noticeable decrease in buck activity. (As in you see fewer).
Ladies and gentlemen, boys and gurls, mommies and daddies, I have been studying these freakin animals for 50-dadgum years. I went to collitch to lurn about them and elkeses. Guess what? Most of the high-blown scieintific stuff you read about deer is recycled pasture.
Does do this...bucks do this...does cause bucks to do this...bucks with one deformed antler are this...a buck should have eight points and 16" of spread by age 3.5. That is all major, big league BS!
It is,just exactly what it is. Unless you are raising deer as you would raise cattle. You can't say JACK with any certainty. And that is all I know about that.
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By:
Zbone
Date:26-Jan-16
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bowriter - Luv it, you go girl...8^)))
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By:
RD
Date:26-Jan-16
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Who teaches an aging technique for does? I've hunted for 55 years and have killed does from 6 months old to a couple aged by the dnr to 9 1/2 but when I look at them there either big, medium or small. Long face or short face. They all taste good! I did cheat one year and use a shotgun to kill an old, old gobbler that was teaching the younger ones to avoid my blind. The old does are the toughest deer in the woods to kill so I take the challenge.
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By:
LBshooter
Date:26-Jan-16
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Have to agree with bowriter. The hunting industry is a money making operation so there is a lot of "experts" selling a lot of garbage. Nothing burns my ass more then when some know it all Hunter on public land says to another Hunter that they should have let that buck pass because he'd be bigger next year.
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By:
meatus
Date:26-Jan-16
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bowriter-Love it! :)
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By:
wild1
Date:26-Jan-16
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Zbone -
Frankly, I don't have the time to post all the scientific research that supports inbreeding avoidance, via dispersal, but (as you requested) I'll post one....which is all you asked for.
Although I'm pessimistic about your integrity, I'll take your word for it and assume you'll now shut-up!
You should read the entire paper, but since you're accustomed to Disney and fairy tells, you can take a shortcut and start on page 24.
An apology is optional.
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By:
12yards
Date:26-Jan-16
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Dudiest, nice buck. Amazing that that animal was once chased miles away from where it was born by its alpha mom.
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By:
buckfevered
Date:26-Jan-16
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wild1, while I am neither agreeing or disagreeing with the theories of dispersal presented in this thread, nor with the writer of the linked paper, I did not read where the dispersal was attributed to the matriarchal, alpha female of the herd (group). The writer did point out research evidence of mother/offspring harassment and full sister (of mother) harassment as being possible causes for the dispersal, but not an unrelated, matriarchal, alpha doe.
Is it possible, that while a mother or her sisters will harass their related yearling buck to leave the home range, the groups alpha doe will not, and leave that function to the actual mother and/or aunts?
I guess one would argue that when the matriarchal, alpha doe was the mother or the aunt of the yearling buck, that indeed the matriarchal, alpha doe would in fact be the one harassing the buck into dispersal.
Anyway, kill what you want and feel like; private or public land, after all, it is your hunt, fulfilling your needs and desires, and it shouldn't (although it will be) judged by others.
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By:
Zbone
Date:26-Jan-16
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wild1 - Where does it say, or even insinuate on page 24, "matriarch alpha doe runs and chases her related family female members year old bucks from their territory"???
The only thing it says is mature does tend to act aggressively towards yearly bucks, and the way stated meaning "all", yearly bucks, not just her own...
In almost all mammal species mature animals are going to act aggressively towards subordinates... Your paper also states young receptive does will run from mature bucks...
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By:
wild1
Date:26-Jan-16
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buck fevered -
If you go back and read my thread(s), I never mentioned "alpha" doe, but I think others may have. I also like your question, it's a good one - but it wasn't one that I was discussing. I wouldn't even know how to tell if the biggest, or oldest doe was related to any given deer, buck or not.
In any case, I agree with your last comment.
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By:
Zbone
Date:26-Jan-16
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Something to mention about dispersal being overlooked here is once that button buck turns a year old and likely a branched antlered buck, he'll probably hook up that yearling summer with others of his own age group or even a bachelor group of older bucks, and in turn the result of these males activities may cause him dispersal to new lands...
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By:
KJC
Date:26-Jan-16
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I read about a very indepth, long term study that was recently completed by two well known and competent scientists. After 10 years of behavioral studies it was proven with 100% accuracy that Bowsiters will, in fact, argue over ANYTHING!
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By:
deerman406
Date:26-Jan-16
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That is why bowriter is not a biologist. Again folks, lots of studies done on this subject not by money hungry pro hunters but by real biologists. Shawn
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By:
wild1
Date:26-Jan-16
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Zbone -
Good lord man, I said "start" on page 24, this isn't a Disney paper or a fairy tale, it's a research paper - they're longer than one page.
It doesn't really matter anymore anyway, it's not that important. Plus, you'll never admit when you're wrong.
All the best.
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By:
willliamtell
Date:26-Jan-16
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Nice thesis. Think I learned a couple of things (very dangerous in my case). 1. Females still pick their mates even when they're animals that go into estrus. Guys never catch a break in nature, but nature avoids inbreeding. 2. One of the ways females avoid inbreeding is to chase off their male offspring. Which means that stud buck who you've been letting live so he could have his way with the ladies (size (of body)counts, by the way) isn't going to produce junior studs who will grow up to replace dad, because mom is going to run junior off a good ways away. So I want to be near a QDM property, but I don't need to be on it as long as I let the junior studs grow old enough on my site to get some decent headgear.
And I'm probably wrong, but even if I'm correct, somebody is going to blast me anyway. Have at it fellas - fun stuff.
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By:
Genesis
Date:26-Jan-16
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Dudeist,I always search for tracts/parcels/pockets of habitiat that have as few deer as I can find.Love the search phase when bucks have to cover ground where I'm hunting.
Too many does equal poor social interaction and less searching by mature bucks......both of those lower my chances at getting a "choota" in front me.
A southern rut with a 8:1 doe:buck ratio isn't too much fun
Also Dudeist,your thinking of more does equal more bucks is akin to saying more acorn producing trees equal more deer and better hunting.In actuality having just a few acorn bearing trees work best when trying to get into bow range.
Thus less populations of does is what I ssek which makes entry/exit better and LIMITS the selection of mature bucks and the breeding of younger bucks.In todays' whitetail range their are still plenty of estrus does in a lower density area to keep a mature buck busy and MORE active.
Less eyes,less immature bucks and less does screwing up your hunt,just my preference anyway
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By:
WV Mountaineer
Date:26-Jan-16
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williamtell, that was priceless. Good stuff. Something to ponder too. God Bless men
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By:
Zbone
Date:27-Jan-16
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deerman406 - "biologist" is ONLY a term earned by formal education. There are good, bad, young, old, experienced, and inexperienced just as in all walks of life. Because somebody earned a college degree does not make them smarter or more experienced than a well-seasoned hunter and I can guarantee you bowriter is more knowledgeable about whitetails than any 25 year old "biologist" just out of college... All you college boys scream all you want, but that's just the truth... Experience is the best teacher...
wild1 - Dude, I'm a straight shooter and will be the FIRST to admit when wrong, but I ain't wrong here on fawn dispersal...
Feeders in my yard attract about every deer in my suburban neighborhood at this time of year, and I observe daily interaction with "WILD" yearling bucks, does, and fawns and I will bet my paycheck no doe (and there is one over 10 years old distinguishable by markings) is going to chase and run a yearling buck out of the territory...
If/When I get a chance, I'll read through your linky, and will try to locate that PA Game Commission study and post link..
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By:
Will
Date:27-Jan-16
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Pabowhunter you posted the most hilarious video ever!
As for alpha does and what not... It's cute to me that so many hunt places with enough deer to be confident you are looking at an "alpha". Sort of a first world hunting problem for my neck of the woods ;) ha!
Interesting discussion overall.
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By:
bowriter
Date:27-Jan-16
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"That is why bowriter is not a biologist."
LOL
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By:
wild1
Date:27-Jan-16
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LOL
Kind of proves my point.......again!!
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By:
IdyllwildArcher
Date:27-Jan-16
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Technically, you're not a biologist unless you have a PhD in biology, but the above post is still funny.
I have a biology degree too, but it doesn't make me any more qualified to talk about fawn dispersal.
I'm definitely NOT saying that decades of hunting experience don't bring legitimacy to opinions on the hunter's prey.
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By:
Zbone
Date:27-Jan-16
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wild1 - Dude, you are all over the place, what you smoking, or are you drunk...8^))) Am curious your age... I still don't know the point you are trying to make...
First you post - "3. They will run off any buck(s) that they gave birth too, in order to prevent possible inbreeding. So if a mature doe as been in the area for 5-8 years, they may have birthed quite a few bucks, and those bucks will be driven off the land by the alpha doe that bred them."
Then buckfevered calls you out and your response is a flat out lie - "buck fevered - If you go back and read my thread(s), I never mentioned "alpha" doe, but I think others may have."
I'm done with this thread... Hey, believe what you will, but those that believe does chase and run young bucks for miles out of their territory need to spend more time in the woods... BTW, how's come we haven't seen video of big mature alpha type does chasing young bucks for long distances as we see bucks tending does during rut... Hmmmm...
I'm out, Peace wild1, stay sober...8^)
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By:
wild1
Date:27-Jan-16
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I have no idea what you just wrote, other than gibberish ^^^^^^^
Best of luck fellas. By the way, I'm wondering if Zbone would like to post his degree.....
lol
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By:
roger
Date:27-Jan-16
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These threads inevitably become pretty hilarious if you think about it.
People get so obsessed over antlers that they start dreaming up their own 'facts' regarding wildlife biology and even become DNA experts over night.
You can NOT, you will NOT, change the genetic makeup of a local deer herd by so-called "culling" bucks according to their individual antler characteristics and have to be high on meth' to think it can be done.
I've only been hunting deer for 35 years or so, but I've never witnessed this phenomenon of "does running off bucks" in to exile, or wherever......LOL. Honestly, where do you guys come up with this stuff, The Outhouse Channel?
Oh, and btw, "Dudeist", you can dig that hole faster with a backhoe, son.
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By:
Jack Harris
Date:27-Jan-16
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this all started when I had a conversation with a rabid QDMA guy who said he would rather shoot a button buck than take out the most mature doe in the herd... I kept an open mind, some of the points made sense... It did impact the last doe I shot but can't promise it will impact the next doe I ever shoot.
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By:
bowriter
Date:27-Jan-16
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I had not read all his posts. We have a new deadly drink down here called Dew"something". It is MT. Dew mixed with racing fuel. Killed two teenagers this week. Hope he isn't on that. Tough from of dispersal.
Just for clarification. Biology is the study of life. Whitetail biology is the study of whitetail life, which I have been doing for a long time including five years in collitch. I also studied some nightime wildlife while in school but never got a degree. :)
You may check out my new thread on dispersal which, btw, I am qualified to speak on since I was dispersed at an early age. And, I two am nowe dun wit dis thred.
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By:
Buck-man
Date:29-Jan-16
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no such thing as a cull buck. killing mature does wont ruin the herd. killing any size buck wont ruin the herd. common sense is all I have to offer.
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By:
DartonJager
Date:29-Jan-16
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One question: how does one tell the "Alfa doe" from the other large mature does she is or happens to be with?
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By:
WV Mountaineer
Date:30-Jan-16
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She's the one wearing the heavy weight belt. Has a following of groupies that moves the sticks, opens the gates for her, and does all the meaningless stuff alpha doe's let the lesser's do. Soon enough though, one of her groupies will devise a plan to gain alpha status and take control. It will result in the current alpha doe's death. They'll bury her in a swamp most likely, to never be found again. Can't have any evidence floating around. They'll kill her because they can't risk her retaliation. It's cruel but, it the way it is when you are on top.
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By:
Genesis
Date:30-Jan-16
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In other words
To BE THE GAL,YOU GOT TO BEAT THE GAL!!!!!
WWWOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!
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By:
meatus
Date:01-Feb-16
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Darton she's the one with the middle hoof up! It's bs, don't worry about it, be a leader not a sheep!
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By:
DartonJager
Date:09-Feb-16
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I kinda thought as much.
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By:
Thornton
Date:12-Feb-16
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Deerman 406 came to KS this year, supposedly accumulated "10,000 acres of prime, private ground by permission" yet he hunted only on 80 acres, proceeded to kill a "160+" buck and now he is smarter than a biologist?
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By:
Thornton
Date:12-Feb-16
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I am for killing a younger doe. I learned at a QDMA meeting about 5 years ago that the older does are more likely to have twins and triplets. For common sense's sake, they also are smarter at keeping youngsters from predators as mentioned above.
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By:
IdyllwildArcher
Date:13-Feb-16
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Why why why is this thread still going?
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By:
greenmountain
Date:13-Feb-16
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This thread is still going because many of us have strong feelings about hunting and biology. If we are honest with ourselves we have limited data. It is tough to come up with accurate conclusions based on limited data.
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By:
ki-ke
Date:13-Feb-16
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Wow! Some of you guys could take the fun out of.....well, almost anything, I imagine!
There are areas in NJ where I could walk you into the woods, put a blindfold on you, have you shoot 3 random arrows into the air and at least one is likely to land on a deer! Dispersal??
Shut up and hunt.
