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Outfitted hunts and small Buck penalties
QDM
Messages posted to thread:
Drop Tine 09-Jan-16
Fuzz 10-Jan-16
TradbowBob 10-Jan-16
DanaC 10-Jan-16
WV Mountaineer 10-Jan-16
MDW 10-Jan-16
TREESTANDWOLF 10-Jan-16
Jack Harris 10-Jan-16
HANS1 10-Jan-16
Tonybear61 10-Jan-16
kentuckbowhnter 10-Jan-16
lawdy 10-Jan-16
Mule Power 10-Jan-16
drycreek 10-Jan-16
Bill in MI 10-Jan-16
GF 10-Jan-16
WV Mountaineer 10-Jan-16
Bill in MI 10-Jan-16
HDE 10-Jan-16
LBshooter 10-Jan-16
Matt 10-Jan-16
HDE 10-Jan-16
deerman406 10-Jan-16
kevin3006 10-Jan-16
drycreek 10-Jan-16
Bill in MI 10-Jan-16
HDE 10-Jan-16
LKH 10-Jan-16
jdee 10-Jan-16
GF 10-Jan-16
deerman406 10-Jan-16
bigeasygator 10-Jan-16
RutNut_@work 11-Jan-16
Drop Tine 11-Jan-16
Matt 11-Jan-16
Genesis 11-Jan-16
Genesis 11-Jan-16
HANS1 11-Jan-16
Genesis 11-Jan-16
Genesis 11-Jan-16
Ollie 11-Jan-16
Twanger 11-Jan-16
LINK 11-Jan-16
LBshooter 11-Jan-16
HDE 11-Jan-16
Twanger 11-Jan-16
TreeWalker 11-Jan-16
Sage Buffalo 11-Jan-16
deerman406 11-Jan-16
mhunt 11-Jan-16
Genesis 11-Jan-16
deerman406 11-Jan-16
12yards 12-Jan-16
South Farm 13-Jan-16
Genesis 15-Jan-16
BuffaloCnty 18-Jan-16
Alpinehunter 18-Jan-16
BTM 18-Jan-16
lawdy 18-Jan-16
XMan 18-Jan-16
william152016 24-Feb-16
william152016 24-Feb-16


Date:09-Jan-16

Looking for a outfitted late season Muzzleloader hunt for my son and I. I know this is bowsite but this crosses over to archery hunts also. The last outfitted hunt I was on was in 1991 and you never seen penalties for bucks under the "outfitters Rules".

The outfitter I'm looking at has a 140" or greater rule in place with a $1000.00 fine for shooting anything smaller. I'm sorry but to be honest I can't tell on the hoof a 130" from a 140" in 1991 it was the guides job to get me in front of animals and "my" choice to shoot or not. To me $1000.00 is a lot of money and I could never have fun with that hanging over my head if I underestimate a animal.

I'm tempted to drive out and just knock on doors this summer and hope to gain some land to hunt. I have 40+ years hunting experience and can scout and hang stands if needed. I'm all for shooting mature deer and have no issues eating a tag. But $500.00 -$1000.00 penalties for a missjudged animal will keep me away.

By: Fuzz
Date:10-Jan-16

$1000 is alot of extra cash to drop on a deer that you may be perfectly happy with but thats pretty typical for Iowa and Illinois. Most outfitters will give hunters a lesson on scoring deer before sending them out. Have a bro in law that is a small outfitter in IL that takes the same clients every year. His rule is "if you wanna kill it, then kill it". Everybody is happy and the same guys come back every year! Good luck!

Fuzz

Date:10-Jan-16

TradbowBob's embedded Photo

Wide Rack Outfitters in Ohio is bowhunting only, but they have no "minimum. You can find them through Bowhunting Safari Consultants if you are interested.

I was there 2 years ago, and Mike told us we could shoot what we wanted. I got the biggest buck of my life, but I could have taken anything.

TBB

By: DanaC
Date:10-Jan-16

Just another bad outcome of horn mania.

Date:10-Jan-16

It is just something he has to do in order to protect his investment. Plain and simple. God Bless men

By: MDW
Date:10-Jan-16

Drop, don't know or care who you are looking at, but there is an outfitter in SE KS. that has this same rule about nothing under 140" OR Does on his lease's.

He can say what he wants, but we process most of the deer killed by his hunters and we see some very small bodies to be carrying 140" racks.

Good luck, where ever you go!

Date:10-Jan-16

"Having a minimum protects the investment" exactly.

The fact is signing an agreement that has a minimum clarifies the guidelines before the hunt. Having a benchmark at 140 is reasonable and having a penalty is also. This way every 3.5 10 point is not taken or shot. It's all part of management.

You mention you have a year, that is plenty of time to review photos, do research, and learn to age a deer on the hoof.. Even if you where going into public land or wanting to hold out for a older deer, this would be a big benefit.

While there is absolutely nothing wrong with shooting any deer or a hunt with no minimums, many factors play into any outfitted and or DIY hunt. Neither are always successful 100% of the time, but they are different in management.

Good luck to you.

Date:10-Jan-16

If you are a good guy in camp and demonstrate you are a good ethical hunter, I doubt any outfitter will really assess any fine if you come up a few inches short. Shoot a 100" 2.5 year old 8pt - different story...

By: HANS1
Date:10-Jan-16

Really no other way to insure or manage for mature deer without some rules in place. While score is important to some age is what the management goal should be about.

This is the hardest part about guiding and having a business model in place to insure quality deer for the future. To further answer the original question I guess it depends on the goals of your hunt. If your goal is a reasonable chance at a mature buck it would make sense to hunt where that chance exists and learn to judge well enough that the fine isn't an issue.

Date:10-Jan-16

Tonybear61's embedded Photo

So what if this one shows up its probably a world record 6 pt that wouldn't score 140, and 3.5 yrs old or more.

Horn mania is right...

Same reason I am against mandatory point restrictions on any public land.

Date:10-Jan-16

when you are in the business of selling big bucks you gotta charge people for taking out your future inventory. if you dont like the outfitters rules dont hunt with them. plenty of outfitters who will let you and your son shoot whatever you want without a fine.

i want an outfitter that highly manages their properties for trophy class animals and does not let clients shoot little bucks.

By: lawdy
Date:10-Jan-16

Deer farming. Up here to see a decent buck is something to celebrate. Jim Zumbo came up here several years ago to hunt our timberlands and write a story. I talked with him before he left. Never saw a deer in two weeks. I, personally would never pay to hunt deer as I live in a wilderness area albeit very low deer density area. If I did I would never pay to have to guess how big the horns are, I would be looking for a big healthy animal to eat. Not one to put on my wall. Actually, if they would let me shoot two skippers instead of one buck, that would be great.

Date:10-Jan-16

Maybe just ask yourself what size of deer you hoped that all of the hunters there before you weren't allowed to shoot so that you had an actual chance at a really good buck.

I would hope that they had a minimum of 130 anyway. If I chose to hunt where the minimum was higher it would be because I hoped to shoot bigger bucks and knew that they managed it for that. I also would know that really that minimum is self imposed because I could hunt elsewhere. If you are happy with a 130 for the cost of the hunt then you should hunt where there's a 130 minimum.

Jack's post is spot on though too.

It would be really helpful to you if they had trail cam pics of the local bucks so you had an idea of what... or who you were looking for. Also, it would be great if when you got there they had a few mounts and or racks sitting around that you could look at and hold in your hands that were right at the minimum for their policies. Might want to ask about those things.

Date:10-Jan-16

I agree that an outfitter is protecting his future " big bucks " ( of both kinds ) by assessing penalties. That said, I know of at least one place in Texas that had a side effect that was certainly detrimental to that effort. This place was bow only in the S Texas brush country and was not score related but went by age. That may be even worse as you have to make a quick decision on a buck's age as he chases a doe through your little area. There is almost no opportunity to watch a buck for several minutes as he closes the distance, because when we call it " brush country " , you better believe it is just that. The animals have tunnels through this thick crap and most openings are very small and deer sightings are brief. The upshot of it was that several bucks got killed and abandoned in the brush because the goobers that shot them had second thoughts and were leary of a $500 fine. I personally think, in this case, the outfitter would have been better served to just let hunters kill whatever they wanted, because at least some of these guys killed two bucks and the coyotes ate the first one.

I went to this place once, and that was enough for me.

Date:10-Jan-16

If the hunters shoot deer and leave them or are tempted to leave them, I can assure you the real problem isn't the property managers rules...

By: GF
Date:10-Jan-16

Bill - I agree with you, but it's all part of a larger issue, which is this overblown obsession with big racks.

And when "wildlife" becomes inventory..... It's not Hunting; it's Farming. Funny to see how many here are able to condemn or dismiss various opportunities to shoot a bison, but no one seems to question the business of rack production. What's the difference? How spooky can a deer be if it "survives" 4.5 years of encounters with humans in which not a single one ever represented a threat? Does that do anything more than allow them more time to overcome their natural caution and become habituated?

And if a client shoots an "underage" buck, then doesn't that give a different ( older & larger) buck another year to become absolutely ginormous?

I don't see where that hurts anything unless that operator is charging by the inch. Unless they can charge more by bragging up the average score, I suppose... Or if they have bucks that live long enough to go into decline.

I guess there is just an awful lot about trophy deer farming that I'll never understand. Usually, I can't stand not understanding things that don't quite add up, but in this case I'm happy to make an exception. Don't want anything to do with it.

I guess if you're interested in giving your business to someone who operates under rules like that, you'd better make damn sure that you really understand the rules before you decide to play. For me, just the fact that they'd have that kind of mentality in the first place would be an absolute deal-breaker.

Date:10-Jan-16

I am not saying I am for or against it. Just why they are doing it. I think it is a result of people wanting to kill them. Horn mania is right. It is the driving force behind all the high costs associated with all hunting. A primo elk unit comes down to a decade wait, if you ever get drawn and, a lot of money to get the points to even stand a chance to draw. Look at what sheep hunts costs. It is ridiculous. I hate t matter of fact. And, it certainly has no place on public land for that reason.

What someone does on their own land s their business. Or, land they have management control on. If you don't want to go by their rules, don't go. I don't do these type hunt for that exact reason many other don't. I refuse to participate in this aspect of hunting. A farmed deer means very little to me. And that is what they are. Farmed. God Bless men

Date:10-Jan-16

I wasn't commenting on anything except the fact that a rule breaker (ie landowner rules, land manager rules, G&F rules, etc etc) became a wanton waster borderline loser. The problem was his ethics, not the rules.

By: HDE
Date:10-Jan-16

Realistically, unless the outfitter physically owns the animal, they would have a tough time making a "penalty" stick. They can uninvite you from ever returning, but charge you for an animal...BS.

The only other way is if state law permits it.

Date:10-Jan-16

I would not book with an outfitter who has a penalty, period. can't think of a better way to ruin a hunting trip than thinking about score before shooting and possibly paying A grand because you screwed up. Plenty of outfitters out there, go find one.

By: Matt
Date:10-Jan-16

If you don't like their rules, take your money elsewhere. Pretty easy.

By: HDE
Date:10-Jan-16

True statement Matt, nobody is making you book...

Date:10-Jan-16

HDE, not so, most outfitters make you sign a legal binding contract. If you shoot a sub-par buck you broke the contract and must pay the fee, if you refuse the outfitter has a slam dunk case in court with that signed agreement. I myself would just do a DIY hunt. It will be a lot cheaper and you can shoot what you want. Shawn

Date:10-Jan-16

I think that most outfitters would want you to shoot a mature older age class deer. The 140 minimum is probably easier for most guys to judge than the age of a deer. I would discuss this with your outfitter beforehand. In the midwest a 2 year old can be a 130" deer. If you are happy shooting any deer than an outfitter with a 140 minimum probably isn't for you. If you would like a better opportunity at a potentially larger buck go with someone who has helped protect his 130 two year olds.

HDE If I would hunt with an outfitter that informed me that he has a 140 minimum my handshake is my contract legal or not.

x2 Bill in MI

Date:10-Jan-16

Bill in MI, I agree that the killing of a deer and then leaving it to the coyotes is not the fault of the outfitter. That rests squarely on the shooter. I was only commenting on the unintended consequences of his rule. In my opinion, he should have charged more, had less hunters, and improved the quality of his clientele. He would have made just as much money with less hassle and his $500 fine would have made just as much sense.

Date:10-Jan-16

I booked a hunt 10ish years ago with 120 gross min. The outfitter had a 5" grace on that. Last day of the hunt I smoked a trotting buck where I saw 5 on one side. He had a very weak other side with only 4 points. He missed the cut and I paid the $500 fine with a handshake. It is what is was. I enjoyed the meat and had a shoulder mount done. Good times.

By: HDE
Date:10-Jan-16

deerman406

Bet it wouldn't hold up in court. Can't fine you for an animal they don't own. All they can do is kick you off the property.

A game ranch is a different story though.

By: LKH
Date:10-Jan-16

LKH's embedded Photo

This is a rifle killed deer that was aged by the cut incisor method at 5.5 years. I had watched him the year before and he wasn't getting any bigger.

He is exactly the type buck that should be killed but under the outfitters rule, he would be allowed to breed.

Check out what happened to Oregon'g Steen's Mountain unit in the '80's with their 4 point or better rule.

By: jdee
Date:10-Jan-16

So you have never killed a P&Y deer , one walks under you, he is about 135" the outfitter has a 140 inch min. so you pass on him go home empty handed, then the neighbor kills him next week. I would never hunt somewhere they had a minimum rule. I don't shoot small deer but the last time I hunted with an outfitter he said kill what you want to kill but I hope it's a mature buck.

By: GF
Date:10-Jan-16

Pat put it well. I don't disagree with any part of that post any more than I want to be part of the whole mess!

Date:10-Jan-16

HDE, it is not a fine for the animal it is a fine for breaking the "rule" and yes it would hold up in court. You get to keep the animal, you just broke a contract where you agreed that you would not shoot an animal that was not within the contract rules. Shawn

Date:10-Jan-16

bigeasygator's embedded Photo

I have hunted with two whitetail outfitters that had rules in place regarding age class or minimum scores for harvest. I can understand why they are in place, and it's not just an obsession with big racks. That being said, on both hunts I killed deer that did not meet minimums and never once did either outfitter say a peep about the fine for not meeting minimums.

The first was in Illinois and the buck ended up being the only deer shot in a camp of 8 hunters. It was close to the minimum in place and I felt the outfitter would be happy to have a deer on the ground and it would be something to pick up the spirits in camp. I was right.

The second one was the buck above that came nowhere near the minimum of 130" for obvious reasons. The outfitter congratulated me on shooting an old deer and taking this guy out of the gene pool. Like Jack Harris said, if you are a nice guy around camp and show some discretion and aren't blatantly disregarding the rule most outfitters will likely show some discretion as well.

Date:11-Jan-16

"If you don't like their rules, take your money elsewhere. Pretty easy."

Exactly, how hard is that. This is no conspiracy or problem as some want to make it. If you want to shoot young bucks or does by all means do it. But you don't get to criticize those that want to shoot/manage mature deer, and not be criticized yourself.

Date:11-Jan-16

How do you do that Rut when just about all whitetail outfitters have them?

From a business standpoint I see it as a way an outfitter can run more hunters through his camp and be assured over harvest won't take place by regulating that only about 5-10% of the deer on his place can be harvested without penalty each year.

Maximizing profit and maintaing inventory.

By: Matt
Date:11-Jan-16

"How do you do that Rut when just about all whitetail outfitters have them?"

Just about all? Why do I feel like that is a gross overstatement which poorly misrepresents reality?

Date:11-Jan-16

Maybe because it is a gross overstatement.

PLENTY of places let you shoot what you want,I'm stunned that this is a sticking point as it's too easy to move on....

Alot of hunters prefer score mininums,however they can be diversions for high pressure operations to make YOU THINK is quality is actually high volume/low harvest

Do come up with a PF (pressure factor) with whomever you book.

Get timbered acre total and divide by number of days afield per season by operation.....days afield are the number of hunters BOOKED X the length of days of BOOKED hunt.(Usually 5 or 6 for WT)

Unless there track record is way above everyone else I wouldn't book with a value less than 5.

7-10 would be a low pressure operation and most likely more expensive

Lastly make sure guides don't hunt .......

Date:11-Jan-16

By: HANS1
Date:11-Jan-16

The above formula is interesting for sure not sure that timbered acres is the best as alot of the cover in the Midwest is CRP, brushy draws, . I don't see why people view these rules any different than an Alaska Moose hunt where the law mandates 50 min. Spread. Or an elk area with a point restriction. It is game management. I would assume that most if not all outfitters with a minimum score would have an exception for old deer with racks below the score.

Date:11-Jan-16

Date:11-Jan-16

I understand that alot of other edge habitat exists but most any guy can get on google and pull up timber.It's not a perfect formula becasue gun pressure impact is LIGHTER than bowhunters.My personal hunting is about 12 and I through in on a lease in Iowa with some other guys and it was about a 9 from hunting but had cattle working on it before the season as an "X" factor so I went with it.

It actually works better in the open country as entrance/exit routes are pretty brittle due to high visibility.So the open CRP /riparian etc is kinda more accurate for it.

Where I would personally move down under 5 would be a heavily wooded operation that provided large blocks of timber (less farming more bluffs)making entry/exit not as brittle.

It's just a way to quantify what the goals are from the operation that go way beyond trophy photos,penalities and other marketing strategies I would not expect an outiftter to run a 10-12 operation unless it's family land etc but play with the math it's a good way to REALLY see waht the goals are for that certain operation.

As for me,haven't been on a guided whitetail hunt in 20 yrs

By: Ollie
Date:11-Jan-16

This is really no different than hunting with an outfitter that has a wounding policy. You have to wonder how many guys ding an animal and then fail to report the hit because they know they will either be fined or have their hunt ended. Outfitters with policies like this often count arrows when you go out and when you come back in for that reason. Bottom line is that you know the outfitters policy in advance. If you can not agree to the policy, then you have no business booking a hunt with that person. Reporting wounds, reporting animals smaller than what you are supposed to shoot is mostly based on the honor system. Failure to do so shows you are a dishonorable person and one who probably cheats in other aspects of life.

Date:11-Jan-16

HDE I heard of a hunter on a guided hunt where the guide had to approved the buck before the shot. The hunter shot a buck that the guide told him not to shoot. It was on private land and the outfitter successfully got the hunter charged for hunting w/o permission. The wildlife officer agreed that by violating the outfitters rules that were part of the access to the land the hunter was hunting w/o permission. This was easier for the outfitter than to bring a civil suite and sent a message. The hunter lost the deer and paid a fine.

By: LINK
Date:11-Jan-16

I don't mind the 140 minimum. My question would be how many 160-180 inchers are there. If they are plentiful it's easy don't shoot unless you think he's 160+ and if you misjudge it surely won't be by 20". The problem is if their target bucks are 150 and your fined for 140. It's easy to miss a buck by 5-10 inches even with trail cam pics much less in the heat of the moment.

Date:11-Jan-16

Never been on a paid outfitted hunt, wondering if your able to shoot does as part of your hunt? At least if you passed on bucks all trip you'd still have some meat to go home with.

By: HDE
Date:11-Jan-16

Twanger, there's got to be more to the story. Can't charge someone with trespass after the trespass was already granted. That would be in violation of an ex post facto provision and against federal law. Not interested in what a state law is since it can't trump federal law.

A law enforcement officer can only enforce the law as written. They cannot interpret the law. Only the courts can. That's the judicial branches job.

Date:11-Jan-16

HDE, I am not a lawyer so I could be wrong. However, I have learned not to call the sheriff,s department but to call the game warden. The Sheriff handles trespassing and the game warden hunting violations which in OH covers hunting w/o permission. In Ohio I can give someone permission to trespass to hunt coyotes and not deer. If that person shoots a deer they are hunting w/o permission. The OH regulations have a form that can be used to give permission and a landowner can be as specific as they want to be in giving hunting permission. As long as the restriction was in writing the hunting w/o permission charge would probably hold up in OH if it went to court. In the example above the hunter agreed that the guide told him not to shoot that deer. Of course the hunter needs to challenge the charge in court with a not guilty plea, which some hunters will not do, for the court to rule. You are correct that the game warden does not have the final say but they do decide whether to issue a citation.

I do not know what Federal Law has to do with this.

Date:11-Jan-16

Let's say you have 10 hunters on your land each year. Bow only. What would it matter if someone shoots a 120 rather than the 150 that walks as a result to perhaps survive through winter? I seriously question anywhere that is not high-fence absolutely knows all the bucks in their zone and which ones will end up winter kill if are not shot that year. The bigger issue is if the outfitter lets 15 or 30 hunters. I just do not see the herd impact on a diverse age herd if a hunter shoots the 1.5 y.o. vs the 3.5 y.o.

Date:11-Jan-16

The same guys that want to shoot anything I find also get upset when they don't see any big bucks.

I am OK with the rule and have broken it before and paid the fine. I am OK with that.

Like others have said, if you shoot a big mature WT that is around 140" I have a hard time believing you will get fined.

Just talk with your outfitter about it and I am sure he'll be OK. If he's in high demand you will be out of luck - no outfitter wants to deal with exceptions if they don't have to.

The real question would be if he takes 30 hunters a year how many 140" is he putting on the ground? I have to assume he's lucky to have 6-9 bucks killed that meet that minimum.

Date:11-Jan-16

Genesis did you ever hunt NW Kansas? I was on a 2400 acre tract and there may have been 100 acres of timber on the whole tract., if that. Not a good formula for a lot of mid-west states. Shawn

By: mhunt
Date:11-Jan-16

I hunt with an outfitter with this same rule. He is just trying to keep people from shooting young deer. Accidents happen and he understands. Its all in what you are looking for, that age or size buck is fairly obvious. If you have to debate its too young or small and if its a wow buck then shoot.

Date:11-Jan-16

"Genesis did you ever hunt NW Kansas? I was on a 2400 acre tract and there may have been 100 acres of timber on the whole tract., if that. Not a good formula for a lot of mid-west states. Shawn"

Deerman,As I said before,it's probably MOST accurate for that type of open country for bowhunting....How many years you hunted Kansas?

Date:11-Jan-16

First year ever but I had access to over 8 thousand acres of private land and there was very little timber on it. I said what I said as the deer I hunted did not use the timber very much, mostly the CRP and prairie. The timber was just used as a means of travel sometimes. Shawn

Date:12-Jan-16

I don't get it. Why would you book with an outfitter if you want to shoot anything? Most people book with an outfitter to shoot something big. Pretty much why they exist in the midwest. If I were you I'd find a good hunt on public land and DIY. Outfitters aren't going to be in business very long if they just produce average animals that can be taken anywhere. There are many places to do what you want to do for a lot less money. Good luck.

Date:13-Jan-16

I would never hunt with somebody that dictates what I can or can't shoot. They have every right to make rules on their properties, but likewise I have every right to book with somebody else with no such rules. Besides, when I book a hunt that's what I want, A HUNT, not to count points or guess scores.

Date:15-Jan-16

If I outfitted I wouldn't hunt with me for sure.To me it's only two ways to do it.Unguided and outfitted only or guided .

Guided hunts would be age class restricted and impact restricted.You shoot,you text and we come get you.Absolutely no boots on the ground with unsupervised recovery or brief scouting.Violators are sent home and money for meals refunded.

Guides don't hunt and neither do clients ....they just shoot!

Don't bug me about what I'm getting on camera 4 months before your hunt cuz I won't have any....:)

My point is so much to being a successful outfitter is predicated on philosphy and discipline to uphold that philosophy.Most times you need to search beyond the websites and camera pics

Date:18-Jan-16

I agree with Pat Lefemine. We hunt here in WI on several hundred private acres, with a minimum score of 140 expected. I only recently added a penalty due to the chronic repeated infractions (mostly by the same parties). These were the same guys who consistently complained about not being able to see bucks they were certain would meet the 140 minimum. In other words, while there were not penalties, my hand was being forced by a lack of respect. Since establishing the penalty, only once has it been applied. The complaining has pretty much stopped, the same guys keep coming back, and lo and behold, we are seeing the larger, older bucks in larger numbers and with larger racks. If this works on a parcel of a few hundred acres, you can rest assured it will also work on larger tracts. All this, in spite of 2 of my neighbors leasing 1000 acres to 2 different Outfitters that bring in 60 hunters each year, with 130 class minimums, and a $500 penalty (which grows to $800 if you break the minimum on your last day - presumably to stop the hunters from shooting just anything that shows up on the last day in desperation). They also have reported an improvement in both the rack size and the age class of the bucks taken from these properties. Of course there is nothing near a 100% kill rate for any of the hunters...that is why it is called hunting... and not killing. It is working, and while bowhunting, we find it mostly not an issue to accurately predict if a buck will go over 140 inches. I also understand not all of you live in Buffalo County, WI, like I do. You have to go where trophy class bucks are consistently produced and taken, year in and year out, if you want to be real serious with this. If you are going to face a minimum size penalty, I think our area would rank as the cream of the crop. Just look up the top - ranked county in the US for P&Y and B&C trophy kills per year and you should find Buffalo County, WI consistently listed as #1. And no, I am not an Outfitter, just a fortunate landowner here. NOTE: Some of the Outfitters around here are now charging $1,500 for violating the minimum size rule.

Date:18-Jan-16

This thread illustrates why I don't see myself ever going on a guided Midwest whitetail hunt. The outfitters are basically growing their deer like a crop and need rules to make the business model work. The hunt becomes very orchestrated and regulated. I get yelled at enough in my regular life and I hunt to get away from such pressures. I'd do a trespass deal if I were to go. For me, there are way more factors than weapon choice that go into overall hunt enjoyment.

By: BTM
Date:18-Jan-16

A bit off-topic, but funny nonetheless:

I hunted a place in Nebraska 15 years ago that had a minimum spread policy. On the lodge's wall of hunters was a picture of a guy from NJ with the word "Busted!" written over it. Apparently he shot a sub-minimum deer, promised to send the outfitter the $400 after he got home, but then reneged on sending the $.

So guess who hunted with the same outfitter a few weeks later? Two LEOs from NJ! When they got back to NJ they ran the name of the skinflint hunter through their database, learned that he had several outstanding warrants, and notified the local sheriff! The man ended up paying a lot more than $400, so ain't karma a bi**h!

By: lawdy
Date:18-Jan-16

This issue will never affect most of us I bet because we can't afford to go on guided hunts or don't think it is worth it for a deer. I know I will be hammered for this, but hunting for me is not sitting in a tree all day staring at a food plot or the same little patch of woods. For me it is taking a track or sneaking along a ridge hoping to get close enough to any deer for a shot with my longbow. Stopping to boil up water for tea and a biscuit and taking a stand before dark along a game trail, hiking out in the dark. If I had the money for guided hunts and lived in a place where hunting is restricted, I would find a place in the boonies and buy it or move there. I would rather live poor, which I do, and be able to walk out my back door and have tens of thousands of acres to roam. Newfoundland is our summer home and playing a few festivals and bars allows us to enjoy fishing, berry picking, and clam digging while living on the little piece of oceanfront land we found 35 years ago.

By: XMan
Date:18-Jan-16

Droptine, you made a good call, you absolutely should stay away from such a place.

A good buddy of mine went on a guided hunt in KY, 23 guys in two camps. Two deer shot, a 130 inch and 110 inch deer in five days. $3000 hunt, one guy fined $500 for not shooting a 140 inch deer, the other guy they looked the other way.

The truth is most outfitters who guide 40-60 guys a year are lucky if they put 10 legit 140" deer on the ground. A mature 4 1/2 yo or older deer isn't going to tolerate the pressure, so what most guys see are the 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 yo's they can't shoot. The excuses are always the same, too hot, full moon, too windy, or the real big boys are on lock down.

If you want to up your odds, you need to hunt with outfitters that truly care about the hunting experience and don't buy in bulk. If there are 20 guys in camp and a penalty, that's the place you want to run away from cause they are not killing many big deer and when they do its a guide doing the killing or some celebrity they put on an unpressured piece they lease.

Find an outfitter that has 5-7 guys at most in camp and the ratio should be 400 acres per man minimum. Second, you need to know the area has the numbers and produces year after year because of sound deer management and an owner that truly cares about the quality of the deer/hunt and not how many beds he can fit in the bunkhouse. I always look at their trophy photo's for the year to see how many legit 140's were taken and then ask how many guys are in camp. Very quickly you can figure out if the place is legit or just an outfitter who trying to take your hard earned money by renting a bed.

Date:24-Feb-16
william152016's Supporting Link

I usually hunt in USA. I have 8 years hunting and build a website to help people choose the best compound bow. All product is arranged "price point range". Hope it can help you choo a good bow.

Date:24-Feb-16
william152016's Supporting Link


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